White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Calling women Karen to shut them up IS sexism. I don't know why you can't grasp this.

Karen doesn't mean what you stubbornly want it to mean. The meaning has changed. Nobody, but nobody, here thinks it's OK to bully a POC server. Instead, "Karen" has come to mean any woman who talks too loudly and makes others uncomfortable. You didn't watch the TicToc video a few pages ago, did you. Women who yell at drivers to slow down around playing children are now being called Karen.

"I do not trust the thoughts of other white women...." Well, that's clear. You're supporting the patriarchy and people like Cao who want to divide women in some twisted winner-take-all fight among women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

It’s embarrassing when women refuse to see overt sexism in an attempt to cozy up to men. The pick-me women are so sad. They will never, ever be picked by the men in power.

^^ worth bumping (it wasn't my post)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

Reddit contains multitudes. You can't pigeonhole it as any one thing let alone throw out a blanket statement that "Reddit" is devoted to protecting male power. The TwoXChromosomes subreddit is (or at least was) a default that all new users were subscribed to. You can argue that that subreddit is not representative of the site as a whole, but the fact that it has a significant presence is sharply at odds with the notion that the site is "devoted to protecting male power."

Try going onto TwoXChromosomes and saying that you believe that convicted rapists with penises who have self-ID’d as women should not be housed in women’s prisons to protect the safety of women prisoners and see how far you get.

Do you truly think the people who created the upskirt subreddit just meekly went away?

Yeah try to figure out how many people on TwoXChromosomes now even have, well, XX chromosomes, lol.

I don’t think Reddit now, as a whole, is as openly misogynistic as it was during its heyday, but it’s not great either.

It’s not as openly misogynist because they’ve succeeded in driving women away. No need to degrade them the way that they used to. Misogyny mission accomplished.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

LOL. No. Keep being you though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

Honestly I think she needs validation from progressive online strangers. I think it's largely virtue signaling -- performative because nobody knows who she is or if she's doing anything real to fight racism. Maybe there's an element of self-abnegation to please men or internet strangers, too.

I work on DEI issues for my day job, but I'm not here saying sexism isn't also a problem. It's possible to fight both racism and sexism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

DP. It's so strange you mention intersectionality. Because you keep arguing that race is the only lens through which we should view anything, and sexism isn't even a tiny part of the picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

DP. It's so strange you mention intersectionality. Because you keep arguing that race is the only lens through which we should view anything, and sexism isn't even a tiny part of the picture.

PP again. You also apparently support divisive headcases like Cao who want to pit POC women against white women. How do you justify your support for that, if you're all about "the headspace opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

Damn. Which subreddit were you on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

But you are the one arguing against intersectionality.