Financially hobbled for life- elite masters degree that don’t pay off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Situation is just sad all around.

I would have anxiety knowing I owed $300,000, can never file for bankruptcy and make under 40k a year.

My god.

There's lawyers who advertise bankruptcy including the student loans.

Student loans are not discharged in bankruptcy

But when it comes to trying to get their student debt forgiven, "more than 99% of the student loan debtors in bankruptcy just give up without even trying," Iuliano says. "It struck me as a really surprising statistic when I first uncovered it."

For those who do try, though, Iuliano's research finds that about half the time the person gets some or all of the student loan debt erased. One study he did found that they got help through bankruptcy about 40% of the time. And he says more recent data from this past year show that figure rising to more than 50% of the time.

"So I think that's really important for bankruptcy attorneys to see that there are judges out there who are willing to grant undue-hardship discharges and that people are much more likely to obtain relief in bankruptcy for their student loan debt," Iuliano says.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-out-bankruptcy-can-wipe-out-student-loan-debt-after-all

[Anonymous]

There are quite a few cash cow master's programs at the Ivies and other top colleges and even some schools in the UK have masters programs that seemed to have designed specifically for international students paying full freight rather than any intrinsic merit.

I did a master's of city planning at Penn and I only did it because they threw a lot of money in my direction and that along with a resident advisor's position in the undergrad dorms meant I graduated with minimal debt (less than my first year salary). However, there were other students in my program who took out the full debt load and graduated with close to 100k in debt for a two year degree (we graduated 20 years ago). Coming from another Ivy undergrad I wasn't impressed with the overall caliber of my program or quality of instruction, it felt more like a master's degree camp rather than a serious pursuit. I took a number of classes in both the law school and Wharton and they were far more serious and technical.

I know some of my peers are still making sub 50k a year while some of us have HHI in the middle six figures. The high earning ones are the ones who quickly moved into real estate consulting or even other forms of consulting that has nothing to do with city planning. It's a weird world where a master's degree can take people into extremely different directions, and as such, very different lives. And plenty of grads with large loans end up working for graduates of similar programs at local state universities that cost next to nothing. I will refrain from going as far as saying it's unfair because people do make decisions along the way and they must be held accountable for it.

The whole American higher education model is fundamentally broken. The cost of education soared because of cheap and easily available student loans and the originators of the loans won't put in caps on loan amounts or tie it to the value of the degree, so it's leeches leeching off each other. Too many people invested in the model to allow for any meaningful change. The progressives rail against the debt but the universities themselves are utterly dominated by progressives at the same time and won't do anything to reduce the cost of their tuition and who are very happy to hoodwink gullible people into taking out enormous loans and pretending it's no problem. From an ethical perspective, the universities have no business admitting students in the first place that can't afford to attend without enormous loans. How these deans and presidents at Columbia can look at their debt-laden students in the eye with any sense of integrity, I do not know, other than that they are corrupt in a sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are quite a few cash cow master's programs at the Ivies and other top colleges and even some schools in the UK have masters programs that seemed to have designed specifically for international students paying full freight rather than any intrinsic merit.

I did a master's of city planning at Penn and I only did it because they threw a lot of money in my direction and that along with a resident advisor's position in the undergrad dorms meant I graduated with minimal debt (less than my first year salary). However, there were other students in my program who took out the full debt load and graduated with close to 100k in debt for a two year degree (we graduated 20 years ago). Coming from another Ivy undergrad I wasn't impressed with the overall caliber of my program or quality of instruction, it felt more like a master's degree camp rather than a serious pursuit. I took a number of classes in both the law school and Wharton and they were far more serious and technical.

I know some of my peers are still making sub 50k a year while some of us have HHI in the middle six figures. The high earning ones are the ones who quickly moved into real estate consulting or even other forms of consulting that has nothing to do with city planning. It's a weird world where a master's degree can take people into extremely different directions, and as such, very different lives. And plenty of grads with large loans end up working for graduates of similar programs at local state universities that cost next to nothing. I will refrain from going as far as saying it's unfair because people do make decisions along the way and they must be held accountable for it.

The whole American higher education model is fundamentally broken. The cost of education soared because of cheap and easily available student loans and the originators of the loans won't put in caps on loan amounts or tie it to the value of the degree, so it's leeches leeching off each other. Too many people invested in the model to allow for any meaningful change. The progressives rail against the debt but the universities themselves are utterly dominated by progressives at the same time and won't do anything to reduce the cost of their tuition and who are very happy to hoodwink gullible people into taking out enormous loans and pretending it's no problem. From an ethical perspective, the universities have no business admitting students in the first place that can't afford to attend without enormous loans. How these deans and presidents at Columbia can look at their debt-laden students in the eye with any sense of integrity, I do not know, other than that they are corrupt in a sense.

Agreed. I got a scholarship to my Columbia masters program but the idea of sucking these students in and charging then sky high tuition is totally unethical. Liberals say conservatives are heartless but these programs are run by liberals and universities lobby to be able to continue to do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Situation is just sad all around.

I would have anxiety knowing I owed $300,000, can never file for bankruptcy and make under 40k a year.

My god.

There's lawyers who advertise bankruptcy including the student loans.

Student loans are not discharged in bankruptcy

But when it comes to trying to get their student debt forgiven, "more than 99% of the student loan debtors in bankruptcy just give up without even trying," Iuliano says. "It struck me as a really surprising statistic when I first uncovered it."

For those who do try, though, Iuliano's research finds that about half the time the person gets some or all of the student loan debt erased. One study he did found that they got help through bankruptcy about 40% of the time. And he says more recent data from this past year show that figure rising to more than 50% of the time.

"So I think that's really important for bankruptcy attorneys to see that there are judges out there who are willing to grant undue-hardship discharges and that people are much more likely to obtain relief in bankruptcy for their student loan debt," Iuliano says.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-out-bankruptcy-can-wipe-out-student-loan-debt-after-all

NP and it's probably because the bankruptcy lawyers in those 99% of cases know they would not satisfy the prongs of the Brunner test and therefore they do not try to have them discharged. That law professor is presenting this in an incredibly irresponsible way to suggest that if people only tried they could discharge their student loans in bankruptcy. The Brunner test is an extremely difficult test to satisfy to get a discharge of student loans. Whether the standard should be so strict is a different issue but as it stands it is very difficult/nearly impossible to get student loans discharged.

[Anonymous]

This makes me respect Princeton. They do no monetize their brand with these degrees. To even audit a class for free requires an application (one of my professor's mom couldn't even audit). The graduate programs are mostly PhDs and funded. The one master's program is the Master in Public Affairs, which is also funded with stipend support. Meanwhile Harvard's MPA is 60k!!!

[Anonymous]

I didn't get a masters because I didn't want student debt. I made a wise choice in the end. If I knew I wouldn't have to pay for it, I would have done it. These idiots paid for a service, they got it, and now they want to get off the hook. No way. Proof there are different kinds of intelligence and usually the ones that get you degrees are the most useless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are smart enough to get into an elite grad program, you should have the intelligence to recognize the financial impact over the long term.

one would think so, but being financially savvy is not the same as being academically smart.

I know someone who has multiple degrees from great schools, but this person's finances are a mess. This person can't manage money.

And no , the debt should not be forgiven. You are an adult; you made a decision. No else should pay for your bad decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are smart enough to get into an elite grad program, you should have the intelligence to recognize the financial impact over the long term.

Being academic doesn’t mean someone is also intelligent about money and investment. Most highly gifted ppl aren’t concerned with the dollars and cents of everyday life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/financially-hobbled-for-life-the-elite-masters-degrees-that-dont-pay-off-11625752773

This was such an insightful article about students who go to elite grad schools and are worse off then they started. Do you think this should be forgiven??

Perhaps, BY THE SCHOOLS GUILTY OF FALSE AND MISLEADING MARKETING.

Did the University tell the students that they are guaranteed a high paying job?

I think the universities are greedy. No doubt, and college costs need to be controlled. But, what false and misleading marketing are they guilty of?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to one of these programs at a different Ivy and have several family members who did the same. None of us are trust fund wealthy but our parents were well off enough to just pay our tuition without us taking out loans. Most of my peers were the same.

I agree that the people who took out loans for these programs only have themselves to blame.[b] Perhaps there should be more scholarships or need based aid but not loan forgiveness!

Of course you do. Degrees are for the idle rich; not for thee!

If it's a useless vanity degree, then yes, that's accurate. Part of the problem is that people who are perpetual students are asking for advice from professors who have never worked outside higher ed. That is how someone I know ended up with a PHD in Organizational Leadership. Her actual work experience in leading organizations is zero.

+1 There are a lot of things that the idle rich can do that us normal people can't.

Caveat Emptor.

The student is the buyer who should be aware.

I also blame parents for not teaching their children BEFORE they go to college about finances and the cost of living, how borrowing and compounded interest works. We've been drilling this into our kids since the were 12.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are smart enough to get into an elite grad program, you should have the intelligence to recognize the financial impact over the long term.

one would think so, but being financially savvy is not the same as being academically smart.

I know someone who has multiple degrees from great schools, but this person's finances are a mess. This person can't manage money.

And no , the debt should not be forgiven. You are an adult; you made a decision. No else should pay for your bad decision.

I wonder how people who take that stand view bankruptcy in other contexts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/financially-hobbled-for-life-the-elite-masters-degrees-that-dont-pay-off-11625752773

This was such an insightful article about students who go to elite grad schools and are worse off then they started. Do you think this should be forgiven??

Perhaps, BY THE SCHOOLS GUILTY OF FALSE AND MISLEADING MARKETING.

Did the University tell the students that they are guaranteed a high paying job?

I think the universities are greedy. No doubt, and college costs need to be controlled. But, what false and misleading marketing are they guilty of?

Everyone knows that career services literature is optimistic at best when it comes to graduate salary data

[Anonymous]

I agree that the US higher ed system is totally screwed up but these people weren't raised on Mars and sure had an ability to estimate their earning potential upon graduation.
The 'elite' degrees are for the trust fund set, sad but true. If you need to work for a living, you might have to ditch your 'dream job' notion and find something maybe less glamorous but more profitable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to one of these programs at a different Ivy and have several family members who did the same. None of us are trust fund wealthy but our parents were well off enough to just pay our tuition without us taking out loans. Most of my peers were the same.

I agree that the people who took out loans for these programs only have themselves to blame. Perhaps there should be more scholarships or need based aid but not loan forgiveness!

Of course you do. Degrees are for the idle rich; not for thee!

If it's a useless vanity degree, then yes, that's accurate. Part of the problem is that people who are perpetual students are asking for advice from professors who have never worked outside higher ed. That is how someone I know ended up with a PHD in Organizational Leadership. Her actual work experience in leading organizations is zero.

+1 There are a lot of things that the idle rich can do that us normal people can't.

Caveat Emptor.

The student is the buyer who should be aware.

[b]I also blame parents for not teaching their children BEFORE they go to college about finances and the cost of living, how borrowing and compounded interest works. We've been drilling this into our kids since the were 12.

You’re able to do this because you’re financially savvy. What about the academically advanced student who is the first in the family to go to college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that the US higher ed system is totally screwed up but these people weren't raised on Mars and sure had an ability to estimate their earning potential upon graduation.
The 'elite' degrees are for the trust fund set, sad but true. If you need to work for a living, you might have to ditch your 'dream job' notion and find something maybe less glamorous but more profitable.

The lack of knowledge and the trust that families place in schools can be mind boggling