Financially hobbled for life- elite masters degree that don’t pay off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's pretty funny, actually.

That she got a job based on TikTok dance moves that someone with a BA+MA in the field and six-figures of debt couldn't?

Yes, that’s what makes it funny.

You'll find it even funnier she got fired the next day.

Went out the same way she came in - with no skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

NP. I know lawyers in their 40s who are still paying off school loans. They're not in biglaw, but they own homes and take vacations, while still paying for their education. I know others in their 40s paying off their law degrees by working non-law jobs. I'm not suggesting that you weren't naive when you started law school, but you're a capable adult now, just like them.

They should also receive loan forgiveness. Why would we want a nation of people paying off graduate school into their 40s and 50s while making salaries that don't come close to justifying to cost of those educations? It makes no sense. Student loan repayment should be income based. It's a far better measure of the actual worth of your education than the sticker price for these degrees, which are absurd and based on the assumption that you will get a job in corporate law making 150k+.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

NP. I know lawyers in their 40s who are still paying off school loans. They're not in biglaw, but they own homes and take vacations, while still paying for their education. I know others in their 40s paying off their law degrees by working non-law jobs. I'm not suggesting that you weren't naive when you started law school, but you're a capable adult now, just like them.

They should also receive loan forgiveness. Why would we want a nation of people paying off graduate school into their 40s and 50s while making salaries that don't come close to justifying to cost of those educations? It makes no sense. Student loan repayment should be income based. It's a far better measure of the actual worth of your education than the sticker price for these degrees, which are absurd and based on the assumption that you will get a job in corporate law making 150k+.

I mean, they chose to finance a law degree. I know somebody who went to law school in his 40s after spending 2 decades trying to pay off his undergrad loans. He’s still in law school, and it seems to be a terrible financial decision. Should he have his law school debt forgiven too? At what age are people liable for their choices? Perhaps if we expect the government to pay all our school loans, the government will want to weigh in on whether we should be allowed to pursue certain fields in the first place. Let’s not.

[Anonymous]

Exactly. Why should we pay for people's poor choices. I didn't go to grad school but I didn't want to take on the risk of the debt.

[Anonymous]

I don't think taxpayers should pay off these loans. But if universities misrepresented the value of their degrees, I think we should take a hard look at whether those universities should pay off their former students' loans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nope. No one held a gun to them and told them they had to pursue theater or film or whatever with a median debt of 170k in an industry where starting salaries are 30-40k. They all took the chance that THEY would be the next Tom Hanks or John Legend or whatever. Well sometimes those things don't work out. Good luck to you.

Interestingly, I learned that John Legend started out in management consulting after college. Was at one of the top firms for a few years.

[Anonymous]

I think the students are responsible for bad decision making but the university is almost predatory--I feel like colleges, even private colleges, should act with some regard for their students' welfare. They're not credit card companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a professional degree (law) that didn’t pay off. I have been paying it for 15 years and will be working on it for another 15 at least. And I borrowed the bare minimum (lived in a tiny apartment with roommates for $550/mo, no vacations or lifestyle choices funded by loans, etc.). But I struggled to find a job that paid well enough for me to pay down my loan any faster. I continued to live with roommates for years and left that only to move in with the person I wound up marrying. I still live frugally— we share a 12 year old Nissan, we don’t eat out much, we take inexpensive vacations, etc. I always feel conscious of my debt. I’m currently trying to save for my child’s education while paying for my own. It’s hard. We have no family money.

I absolutely think I deserve some kind of forgiveness. Not for the whole amount, but just some kind of assistance. I feel swindled by my grad school. I wish I’d understood back then that a huge factor in getting a job out of law school (unless you attend a top 5 school or graduate at the top of your class, which I didn’t) is having industry contacts or at least having some more intimate knowledge of the industry. I didn’t get it at all, was super naive, and career services was honestly hostile when I didn’t land a big firm job via on-campus interviewing.

It’s gross to me that I will spend most of my adult life in debt because I was too dumb at 22 to understand all this. I don’t expect tax payers to pay it, but I wish my alma mater bore some responsibility. They benefitted a lot from my naïveté.

Fellow attorney here who went to a state school for my law degree and graduated in the middle of the pack. I agreed with most everything you said about not knowing what I was getting into with law, and that you need connections. I was the only lawyer in my family, and finding a job was a challenge. I don't agree with having the public pay off the law degree, but my state school was only $100 a credit hour when I went, so I got out with minimal loans. It was tough since I decided I didn't want to be an attorney, and every job interview just assumed I wanted to be a lawyer and was using that job as a place-holder. Nowadays I think a lot of people go to law school without the intent of being an attorney. I did get an MBA at a later point and that made a difference, but I will push my kids towards graduate school, but only if it is for a professional degree they have an interest in pursuing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

NP. I know lawyers in their 40s who are still paying off school loans. They're not in biglaw, but they own homes and take vacations, while still paying for their education. I know others in their 40s paying off their law degrees by working non-law jobs. I'm not suggesting that you weren't naive when you started law school, but you're a capable adult now, just like them.

They should also receive loan forgiveness. Why would we want a nation of people paying off graduate school into their 40s and 50s while making salaries that don't come close to justifying to cost of those educations? It makes no sense. Student loan repayment should be income based. It's a far better measure of the actual worth of your education than the sticker price for these degrees, which are absurd and based on the assumption that you will get a job in corporate law making 150k+.

I mean, they chose to finance a law degree. I know somebody who went to law school in his 40s after spending 2 decades trying to pay off his undergrad loans. He’s still in law school, and it seems to be a terrible financial decision. Should he have his law school debt forgiven too? At what age are people liable for their choices? Perhaps if we expect the government to pay all our school loans, the government will want to weigh in on whether we should be allowed to pursue certain fields in the first place. Let’s not.

people paying off law degrees over an extended period may have other reasons for keeping the loans. Mine are at prime minus .5 with a 30 year term. I could pay them off at any time, but I choose to invest the money instead. I have a lot of colleagues in the same situation. Some actually regret being aggressive early because that money could have been otherwise invested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

Life isn't fair.

What happens if you get your loan forgiven, then 10 yrs later get a windfall because you got lucky? Why shouldn't you have to pay the taxpayers back?

Fine to restructure the debt, but it's not fine to completely forgive the loan with zero expectation of you ever paying it back.

A lot of people chose a cheaper college, and/or went to community college, worked three jobs to pay for it, and still may have taken a small loan to help pay for college, and then paid it off after graduating. How is paying off your loan fair to these people? Will you tell them that "life is unfair..that they should've just taken out a bigger loan"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Exactly. Why should we pay for people's poor choices. I didn't go to grad school but I didn't want to take on the risk of the debt.

+1
I went to cheapo no name state school because I didn't want the debt.
My sibling got a GI bill, then community college, then to public univ because sibling didn't want debt. Sibling then got a masters with a loan, then paid it off several years.
My cousin worked three jobs to put herself through college. She got a small loan and has every intention of paying it off. She's not looking for taxpayer handout.

How is it fair to people like us if we make people like us foot your bill? I grew up lower income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

Life isn't fair.

What happens if you get your loan forgiven, then 10 yrs later get a windfall because you got lucky? Why shouldn't you have to pay the taxpayers back?

Fine to restructure the debt, but it's not fine to completely forgive the loan with zero expectation of you ever paying it back.

A lot of people chose a cheaper college, and/or went to community college, worked three jobs to pay for it, and still may have taken a small loan to help pay for college, and then paid it off after graduating. How is paying off your loan fair to these people? Will you tell them that "life is unfair..that they should've just taken out a bigger loan"?

The issue is that the unfairness in this case is built into the system in order to exploit people without power (young people from less advantaged backgrounds who are trying to get into a good career) while enriching powerful entities (lenders, graduate programs and their well-paid administrators). This isn't a "oh, life is unfair" situation. This is a decades long con by grad programs, including many law schools, to charge astronomical tuition knowing it can be financed by a student loan system that is solely interested in profit, completely divorced from whether there is a market for those graduates or whether that market will produce salaries that will justify the high cost of law school.

Did you know law students are not allowed to work their first year of school because it will detract from their studies? The legal industry is STILL premised on the idea that it is the option of choice for wealthy second sons. It is not a system designed for people to work their way through -- it is designed to force you to take out large loans on the promise that you will soon make a lot of money, and law schools are not honest about how many of their graduates wind up doing things like working temp document review positions with no benefits and no security, or taking jobs that start at 50k and have a ceiling of 75k, all while trying to repay 100k in loans.

Did you know many prominent law schools are used by their university to fund med schools and other far less profitable but still prestigious programs? Which means the 100k in debt that many law grads rack up is helping to educate physicians. That's not something most law school students know or understand, and should probably be disclosed up front, right?

It's an exploitative system. It's not about individual choices -- far too many people wind up in this situation for it to simply be a case of some people making "better" choices.

I know a couple people who wanted to go to a law school and 100% would have, but didn't get in anywhere. They didn't make a "smart choice". They just got lucky!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Totally agree with pp who said Columbia is a bad actor here. It is crazy that they are allowed to do this. Where is Elizabeth Warren.

This. I won't give many details so as to preserve anonymity, but just over age 25, I got hired to be just under director level at one of the Columbia masters programs (that should have been my first clue). I quit for the only time in my entire career in a fiery blaze after 3 months, alleging misrepresentation about earning potential to prospective students. The people profiting off these programs are crooks and preying on people's insecurities. The academic standards for these masters programs are non-existent compared to Columbia's legitimate programs but people think they are going to Columbia - there's a reason the jobs available in the relevant fields don't go to these graduates. Even if you were top of your class in undergrad at a top institution, many prospective employer would not believe it if all you had was one of these masters post-undergrad. You'd be better off with just undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

I want to let you know that I’m sorry that you’re in the situation you’re in. I don’t have student loans and support forgiveness. A lot of people who don’t support forgiveness are invested in making sure others stay below them socioeconomically. I don’t understand wanting others to be punished until they die for a financially mistake they made before the age of 25. Insanity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

Life isn't fair.

What happens if you get your loan forgiven, then 10 yrs later get a windfall because you got lucky? Why shouldn't you have to pay the taxpayers back?

Fine to restructure the debt, but it's not fine to completely forgive the loan with zero expectation of you ever paying it back.

A lot of people chose a cheaper college, and/or went to community college, worked three jobs to pay for it, and still may have taken a small loan to help pay for college, and then paid it off after graduating. How is paying off your loan fair to these people? Will you tell them that "life is unfair..that they should've just taken out a bigger loan"?

The issue is that the unfairness in this case is built into the system in order to exploit people without power (young people from less advantaged backgrounds who are trying to get into a good career) while enriching powerful entities (lenders, graduate programs and their well-paid administrators). This isn't a "oh, life is unfair" situation. This is a decades long con by grad programs, including many law schools, to charge astronomical tuition knowing it can be financed by a student loan system that is solely interested in profit, completely divorced from whether there is a market for those graduates or whether that market will produce salaries that will justify the high cost of law school.

Did you know law students are not allowed to work their first year of school because it will detract from their studies? The legal industry is STILL premised on the idea that it is the option of choice for wealthy second sons. It is not a system designed for people to work their way through -- it is designed to force you to take out large loans on the promise that you will soon make a lot of money, and law schools are not honest about how many of their graduates wind up doing things like working temp document review positions with no benefits and no security, or taking jobs that start at 50k and have a ceiling of 75k, all while trying to repay 100k in loans.

Did you know many prominent law schools are used by their university to fund med schools and other far less profitable but still prestigious programs? Which means the 100k in debt that many law grads rack up is helping to educate physicians. That's not something most law school students know or understand, and should probably be disclosed up front, right?

It's an exploitative system. It's not about individual choices -- far too many people wind up in this situation for it to simply be a case of some people making "better" choices.

I know a couple people who wanted to go to a law school and 100% would have, but didn't get in anywhere. They didn't make a "smart choice". They just got lucky!

I didn’t go to law school nor grad school. This comment was incredibly insightful. Wow.