Financially hobbled for life- elite masters degree that don’t pay off

[Anonymous]

I don’t know what to say about the orthodontist but when I got my MFA they did bait and switch. I was halfway through the program where I had full scholarship when they cancelled all aid. Therefore to finish I took out loans. Very unethical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's pretty funny, actually.

That she got a job based on TikTok dance moves that someone with a BA+MA in the field and six-figures of debt couldn't?

Yes, that’s what makes it funny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But for every story about people not being able to pay off debt- there’s stories like my dhs. His family didn’t give him any money (didn’t believe in it- I think they could have helped). He took out 15k a year and by the time he graduated it was 80k. He made 80k in his first job. We got married at 24 and I helped pay off his loans too. We paid them all off by 26 and we also saved for a down payment during this time. Definitely lived like church mice. Dh has his dream job and they paid for his masters. I have a few friends with this same amount of debt and they’re still wallowing in it a decade after graduation. Some haven’t paid it down at all. They have 50k cars though, but somehow rant about student loans.

But that was undergrad debt, and you guys got married early and you helped him pay it off. You were a two income household, no kids. If I’d had a partner in my 20s to help me pay down my debt (and to share living expenses so I didn’t have to live with multiple roommates), I also would have been able to pay it down sooner.

But I had no undergrad debt (state school plus scholarship plus student job). I borrowed for grad school, graduated in my late 20s, struggled to find a job, then the subprime crisis hit and I got laid off, struggled to find another job, got married in the midst of this. Then had to make the choice between paying my loans down aggressively or having a child, and chose a child because what the hell is the point of life anyway?

So yeah, I’m in my 40s and still paying loans, and I don’t have a luxury car and I have worked hard. But I didn’t get lucky. I didn’t have a spouse or family to help me pay it down, I got screwed by some bad timing in the job market, and I was up against my reproductive viability.

What if I got lucky too? Like in the form of a debt forgiveness program that just reduced my pronocople by some amount of helped me with interest? Why is that kind of luck somehow “unfair” but your DH’s good fortune is fine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But for every story about people not being able to pay off debt- there’s stories like my dhs. His family didn’t give him any money (didn’t believe in it- I think they could have helped). He took out 15k a year and by the time he graduated it was 80k. He made 80k in his first job. We got married at 24 and I helped pay off his loans too. We paid them all off by 26 and we also saved for a down payment during this time. Definitely lived like church mice. Dh has his dream job and they paid for his masters. I have a few friends with this same amount of debt and they’re still wallowing in it a decade after graduation. Some haven’t paid it down at all. They have 50k cars though, but somehow rant about student loans.

The huge point in your post is that you DH had a first year income equal to his loan balance. Plus, he had a partner who helped pay it off (you). That's completely manageable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But for every story about people not being able to pay off debt- there’s stories like my dhs. His family didn’t give him any money (didn’t believe in it- I think they could have helped). He took out 15k a year and by the time he graduated it was 80k. He made 80k in his first job. We got married at 24 and I helped pay off his loans too. We paid them all off by 26 and we also saved for a down payment during this time. Definitely lived like church mice. Dh has his dream job and they paid for his masters. I have a few friends with this same amount of debt and they’re still wallowing in it a decade after graduation. Some haven’t paid it down at all. They have 50k cars though, but somehow rant about student loans.

But that was undergrad debt, and you guys got married early and you helped him pay it off. You were a two income household, no kids. If I’d had a partner in my 20s to help me pay down my debt (and to share living expenses so I didn’t have to live with multiple roommates), I also would have been able to pay it down sooner.

But I had no undergrad debt (state school plus scholarship plus student job). I borrowed for grad school, graduated in my late 20s, struggled to find a job, then the subprime crisis hit and I got laid off, struggled to find another job, got married in the midst of this. Then had to make the choice between paying my loans down aggressively or having a child, and chose a child because what the hell is the point of life anyway?

So yeah, I’m in my 40s and still paying loans, and I don’t have a luxury car and I have worked hard. But I didn’t get lucky. I didn’t have a spouse or family to help me pay it down, I got screwed by some bad timing in the job market, and I was up against my reproductive viability.

What if I got lucky too? Like in the form of a debt forgiveness program that just reduced my pronocople by some amount of helped me with interest? Why is that kind of luck somehow “unfair” but your DH’s good fortune is fine?

DP.. life is unfair. Why do some kids have to go hungry, be homeless, have no support at home and so the vicious poverty cycle continues while others are lucky enough to be born to parents who can provide stability and a good life. This game could go on and on.

Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But for every story about people not being able to pay off debt- there’s stories like my dhs. His family didn’t give him any money (didn’t believe in it- I think they could have helped). He took out 15k a year and by the time he graduated it was 80k. He made 80k in his first job. We got married at 24 and I helped pay off his loans too. We paid them all off by 26 and we also saved for a down payment during this time. Definitely lived like church mice. Dh has his dream job and they paid for his masters. I have a few friends with this same amount of debt and they’re still wallowing in it a decade after graduation. Some haven’t paid it down at all. They have 50k cars though, but somehow rant about student loans.

But that was undergrad debt, and you guys got married early and you helped him pay it off. You were a two income household, no kids. If I’d had a partner in my 20s to help me pay down my debt (and to share living expenses so I didn’t have to live with multiple roommates), I also would have been able to pay it down sooner.

But I had no undergrad debt (state school plus scholarship plus student job). I borrowed for grad school, graduated in my late 20s, struggled to find a job, then the subprime crisis hit and I got laid off, struggled to find another job, got married in the midst of this. Then had to make the choice between paying my loans down aggressively or having a child, and chose a child because what the hell is the point of life anyway?

So yeah, I’m in my 40s and still paying loans, and I don’t have a luxury car and I have worked hard. But I didn’t get lucky. I didn’t have a spouse or family to help me pay it down, I got screwed by some bad timing in the job market, and I was up against my reproductive viability.

What if I got lucky too? Like in the form of a debt forgiveness program that just reduced my pronocople by some amount of helped me with interest? Why is that kind of luck somehow “unfair” but your DH’s good fortune is fine?

DP.. life is unfair. Why do some kids have to go hungry, be homeless, have no support at home and so the vicious poverty cycle continues while others are lucky enough to be born to parents who can provide stability and a good life. This game could go on and on.

Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But for every story about people not being able to pay off debt- there’s stories like my dhs. His family didn’t give him any money (didn’t believe in it- I think they could have helped). He took out 15k a year and by the time he graduated it was 80k. He made 80k in his first job. We got married at 24 and I helped pay off his loans too. We paid them all off by 26 and we also saved for a down payment during this time. Definitely lived like church mice. Dh has his dream job and they paid for his masters. I have a few friends with this same amount of debt and they’re still wallowing in it a decade after graduation. Some haven’t paid it down at all. They have 50k cars though, but somehow rant about student loans.

The huge point in your post is that you DH had a first year income equal to his loan balance. Plus, he had a partner who helped pay it off (you). That's completely manageable.

There are many who weren't in that PP's DH situation.

My niece went to a no-name, cheaper univ, worked three jobs to put herself through it. Majored in something that paid decently. Graduated, got a job, and now paying back loans.

She's 30.

Way too may excuses. Why do people insist on going to expensive schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But for every story about people not being able to pay off debt- there’s stories like my dhs. His family didn’t give him any money (didn’t believe in it- I think they could have helped). He took out 15k a year and by the time he graduated it was 80k. He made 80k in his first job. We got married at 24 and I helped pay off his loans too. We paid them all off by 26 and we also saved for a down payment during this time. Definitely lived like church mice. Dh has his dream job and they paid for his masters. I have a few friends with this same amount of debt and they’re still wallowing in it a decade after graduation. Some haven’t paid it down at all. They have 50k cars though, but somehow rant about student loans.

But that was undergrad debt, and you guys got married early and you helped him pay it off. You were a two income household, no kids. If I’d had a partner in my 20s to help me pay down my debt (and to share living expenses so I didn’t have to live with multiple roommates), I also would have been able to pay it down sooner.

But I had no undergrad debt (state school plus scholarship plus student job). I borrowed for grad school, graduated in my late 20s, struggled to find a job, then the subprime crisis hit and I got laid off, struggled to find another job, got married in the midst of this. Then had to make the choice between paying my loans down aggressively or having a child, and chose a child because what the hell is the point of life anyway?

So yeah, I’m in my 40s and still paying loans, and I don’t have a luxury car and I have worked hard. But I didn’t get lucky. I didn’t have a spouse or family to help me pay it down, I got screwed by some bad timing in the job market, and I was up against my reproductive viability.

What if I got lucky too? Like in the form of a debt forgiveness program that just reduced my pronocople by some amount of helped me with interest? Why is that kind of luck somehow “unfair” but your DH’s good fortune is fine?

DP.. life is unfair. Why do some kids have to go hungry, be homeless, have no support at home and so the vicious poverty cycle continues while others are lucky enough to be born to parents who can provide stability and a good life. This game could go on and on.

Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

No.. we help people when they need it for basic living, but not when they choose to go to an expensive school that requires a loan.

You chose to be crushed by student loans. People born into poverty didn't choose that. People who get into accidents and so can't work or get a disease don't choose that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know what to say about the orthodontist but when I got my MFA they did bait and switch. I was halfway through the program where I had full scholarship when they cancelled all aid. Therefore to finish I took out loans. Very unethical.

Not quite the same thing, but it’s actually pretty common for schools to offer merit or need-based scholarships freshman year and expect the student to take out loans for the rest of their time. I knew several people that transferred after freshman year because of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is society supposed to provide a level playing field for everyone that has bad luck in life?

.... Yes?

I don't think you can ever totally level the playing field, but I absolutely think we all benefit from helping those less fortunate, whether it's someone born into poverty or someone too disabled to work or someone being crushed by student debt. When we help those who are not in a position to help themselves, we maximize the efficiency of society, channeling resources to those who can best use them. It's also morally the right thing to do.

The alternative is to just hope you get lucky and to be okay with living in a world surrounded by pain and suffering that you are in a position to help but don't. Does that actually sound preferable to you?

LOL.. it's not "morally a right thing to do" to dig people out of debt because they chose to take out stupid amounts of loans.

It's immoral to take out that loans and not pay it back and expect others to do it for you.

It's immoral to tell young people that the only way for them to get a good job that will enable them to own a home and have a family is to go to school, and then price that education so high they have no choice but to take out loans, and then when they are crushed by those loans to tell them they made their choices.

Most people with education debt took it on because they believed it was the path to a higher income and more self-sufficiency. And don't ignore the fact that they actually put in the work to get their degree as well -- they earned their degree the same way everyone does, by going to class and studying and getting sufficient grades to graduate. I'm sure some tiny percentage of student loan borrowers have degrees in experimental theater from Columbia or whatever. But most of us have degrees in professional fields and simply have never found jobs that paid well enough to justify the cost of our education, a fact compounded by economic crises.

Our entire education system is immoral.

I don’t totally disagree, but there are a ton of options for school other than a 4 year vanity degree at a 70k per year private school. 18 yr olds today don’t want to do 2 years of community college or join the military. It’s not right to suggest that there are no options and that these new adults couldn’t make better financial decisions.

Sure but what percentage of people asking for debt forgiveness have "4 year vanity degrees at a 70k per year private school"?

I went to public school for undergrad (for free because I had good grades and was in-state) and then a private grad program that I was reassured by everyone (the school, my parents, my college advisor, etc.) was worth the cost of borrowing because of my job prospects. It wasn't, and now I'm going to spend my entire life paying off this debt.

I'm tired of being lumped in with kids who borrowed 150k to go to Oberlin and major in French history or whatever. I did all the "right" things. I even turned down admission to a small private liberal arts school specifically because I would have had to take out loans and was worried about debt. I wanted to major in English but instead got a more "practical" degree and pursued a career path specifically because I thought it would be more stable and lucrative. It has not been.

I'm just sick of the people highlighting the most entitled people as evidence of why we shouldn't forgive student loan debt when many of us tried to follow all your rules for living frugally and responsibly and we are still struggling with our student loans, but no one cares because some orthodonist has a 50k car and poor financial sense? I don't get it.

NP. I know lawyers in their 40s who are still paying off school loans. They're not in biglaw, but they own homes and take vacations, while still paying for their education. I know others in their 40s paying off their law degrees by working non-law jobs. I'm not suggesting that you weren't naive when you started law school, but you're a capable adult now, just like them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a professional degree (law) that didn’t pay off. I have been paying it for 15 years and will be working on it for another 15 at least. And I borrowed the bare minimum (lived in a tiny apartment with roommates for $550/mo, no vacations or lifestyle choices funded by loans, etc.). But I struggled to find a job that paid well enough for me to pay down my loan any faster. I continued to live with roommates for years and left that only to move in with the person I wound up marrying. I still live frugally— we share a 12 year old Nissan, we don’t eat out much, we take inexpensive vacations, etc. I always feel conscious of my debt. I’m currently trying to save for my child’s education while paying for my own. It’s hard. We have no family money.

I absolutely think I deserve some kind of forgiveness. Not for the whole amount, but just some kind of assistance. I feel swindled by my grad school. I wish I’d understood back then that a huge factor in getting a job out of law school (unless you attend a top 5 school or graduate at the top of your class, which I didn’t) is having industry contacts or at least having some more intimate knowledge of the industry. I didn’t get it at all, was super naive, and career services was honestly hostile when I didn’t land a big firm job via on-campus interviewing.

It’s gross to me that I will spend most of my adult life in debt because I was too dumb at 22 to understand all this. I don’t expect tax payers to pay it, but I wish my alma mater bore some responsibility. They benefitted a lot from my naïveté.

What was the rank of this law school?