Travel and social class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Completely idiotic because it confuses money with social class and ignores multicultural and international people like me.

I return to the Alps regularly in summer because I'm French and like my mountains. I avoid the touristy parts because I don't like crowds when hiking.

Where do you hike in the French Alps? My dream is to have a chalet or condo in the Alps for winter skiing and summer hiking during my retirement. Will keep my main home in DC for the nice spring and fall months

I want to buy in the next few years and rent out for the next 10-20 years to pay it off before I retire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the travel (and I disagree that Europe is a itself an indicator of class)—it’s the place. Everyone goes to London, Paris, Rome, Venice....but only old money types go to certain places in the Alps, for instance. Aspen, the Vineyard, certain Carribean Islands (I guess St. B), etc. it’s an indicator like certain schools or brands that I haven’t even heard of. If you know, you know. The rest of us are like “oh, that sounds nice. I went to st. Thomas last year!” Or confuse sea colony with sea island.

Most Americans have not been to Europe.
Most Americans don’t even have passports.

Those Americans who have been to Europe, particularly those who go often, are absolutely at least middle class, on average.

I'm the one you're responding to, and I agree. By "everyone" I didn't mean all income strata -- I meant all social class strata. For instance, you see all these comments that only "lower class" people take cruises. And you know how many cruises ran through Europe, prior to pandemic? A lot. And I'm not talking about higher-end Viking ones -- I'm talking your basic Carnival, Royal Carrib, etc. I'm not judging -- I actually like cruising and am right there in with the hoi polloi. But I also recognize that the old money folks are not spending their money splurgling for the Haven suite on a norwegian cruise line....that's a new money thing.
I am the first to admit I am not of a high social class, but I mix with them periodically, since I went to fancy college/law school and live now in Bethesda. I'm just frequently surprised because I DON'T know the little inside signs of the upper crust, and every once in a while I stumble into them and realize that I missed a bunch of things that were coded as upper crust (like which schools or clubs around here are considered fancy, what kind of clothes/purses the fancy people buy, etc.). It's not about cost or money, or even about the quality or luxury -- it's about a million little signals that are telegraphed to people in the know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the travel (and I disagree that Europe is a itself an indicator of class)—it’s the place. Everyone goes to London, Paris, Rome, Venice....but only old money types go to certain places in the Alps, for instance. Aspen, the Vineyard, certain Carribean Islands (I guess St. B), etc. it’s an indicator like certain schools or brands that I haven’t even heard of. If you know, you know. The rest of us are like “oh, that sounds nice. I went to st. Thomas last year!” Or confuse sea colony with sea island.

Most Americans have not been to Europe.
Most Americans don’t even have passports.

Those Americans who have been to Europe, particularly those who go often, are absolutely at least middle class, on average.

I'm the one you're responding to, and I agree. By "everyone" I didn't mean all income strata -- I meant all social class strata. For instance, you see all these comments that only "lower class" people take cruises. And you know how many cruises ran through Europe, prior to pandemic? A lot. And I'm not talking about higher-end Viking ones -- I'm talking your basic Carnival, Royal Carrib, etc. I'm not judging -- I actually like cruising and am right there in with the hoi polloi. But I also recognize that the old money folks are not spending their money splurgling for the Haven suite on a norwegian cruise line....that's a new money thing.
I am the first to admit I am not of a high social class, but I mix with them periodically, since I went to fancy college/law school and live now in Bethesda. I'm just frequently surprised because I DON'T know the little inside signs of the upper crust, and every once in a while I stumble into them and realize that I missed a bunch of things that were coded as upper crust (like which schools or clubs around here are considered fancy, what kind of clothes/purses the fancy people buy, etc.). It's not about cost or money, or even about the quality or luxury -- it's about a million little signals that are telegraphed to people in the know.

These "million little signals" are ingrained though - for both them (and you). You have your own life experiences and signals which convey your own childhood/background. People who grew up with immense wealth don't walk around throwing these signals out intentionally. Its just another part of their lived experience.

[Anonymous]

Everyone I know skis now - not so about 30 years ago, but it is a different time now. Trips aren't really an indicator to me, and I don't go around announcing the many cool places i have been.

Where someone grew up is the biggest indicator of class, OP. Plus, how you treat other people. If you act like you have a chip on your shoulder, it tells me you are hiding something - like where you grew up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree. My Dad is a 5%'er and he has global access and a pass that allows you to just board and pay for first class upgrades. He literally walks to an airport be it private or commercial, and boards. He has been to 43 countries in 4 years As I speak, he is heading to Quito, and then to the Galapagos Islands to explore and take a private cruise on a yacht. I am his daughter and cannot do such things. I know he is of a different class.

Not really that impressive honestly. Many of us have done more than 43 countries in 4 years!

[Anonymous]

I grew up in a wealthy family. Maybe not true “old money” but definitely 1% and there was wealth back to my great-grandparents and it was increased each generation, but my family was also very connected to the government.
We traveled to Europe every year or so, and did other trips (central/South America, Asia, Hawaii, etc) less often but still a number of times as a kid. We did multi-generation trips with my grandmother and uncle & aunt pretty often. We didn’t “summer” anywhere per se, but had homes in Aspen, California and a NYC apartment in addition to our primary home in DC. We’d spend a week or so skiing most winters, and a few summer weeks in both CO and CA, NY for lots of weekends for museums, shopping and shows.
I never really talked about travel with my peers, but I knew our family did more than many. In college I took a course where we were all asked to share our family’s ses and I learned that other people got extremely hostile if I said I was “upper class” (that was one of the options). They didn’t believe anyone was really above “umc” unless they were a Trump or a Russian oligarch. It was pretty interesting.

[Anonymous]

When I was a kid, I could tell a family was rich if they flew for all their vacations. Flying was so expensive back then, and kids didn’t fly that much. So if you met a 10 year old who had flown a lot, either his family was rich or his parents were divorced, or both.

That changed as I got older because flying got more affordable with budget airlines. I still think that a vacation where you have to fly us out of reach for a lot of families, especially if you have more than two kids. It’s still and indication of wealth or at least an indication that you are well paid enough to have a decent amount of disposable income.

And yes, where you travel is a class marker. I remember when I got to grad school and encountered truly wealthy people for the first time. I was confused about the selectivity of their vacations. To me, I wanted to go everywhere. Prague? Yes. Norfolk? Also yes? Skiing in Colorado? Yes. Jersey shore? Also yes.

But wealthy people don’t like to go places where they will interact with people outside their class. Which leads to weird things where going to the Eastern Shore is “better” than going to Hungary because Budapest isn’t “classy” enough to visit. Extremely weird priorities! But you do you— Budapest was awesome (and remarkably affordable).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Couldn’t you tell someone’s social class just by where you met them, what they do, etc etc? I mean, to whom am I giving this test? And what would I do with the results?

Well in the book it’s a college student hearing that her new roommate grew up going to Christmas markets in Europe, skiing out west every spring break, and vacations on Sea Island every summer.

Tipped her off immediately to the roommate being from a high class family.

This means high money. This doesn’t necessarily mean high class. They aren’t the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was a kid, I could tell a family was rich if they flew for all their vacations. Flying was so expensive back then, and kids didn’t fly that much. So if you met a 10 year old who had flown a lot, either his family was rich or his parents were divorced, or both.

That changed as I got older because flying got more affordable with budget airlines. I still think that a vacation where you have to fly us out of reach for a lot of families, especially if you have more than two kids. It’s still and indication of wealth or at least an indication that you are well paid enough to have a decent amount of disposable income.

And yes, where you travel is a class marker. I remember when I got to grad school and encountered truly wealthy people for the first time. I was confused about the selectivity of their vacations. To me, I wanted to go everywhere. Prague? Yes. Norfolk? Also yes? Skiing in Colorado? Yes. Jersey shore? Also yes.

But wealthy people don’t like to go places where they will interact with people outside their class. Which leads to weird things where going to the Eastern Shore is “better” than going to Hungary because Budapest isn’t “classy” enough to visit. Extremely weird priorities! But you do you— Budapest was awesome (and remarkably affordable).

This is an interesting thought, and one I hadn't really ever thought of. But I think you're right. It's almost like a fear of the unknown. And I agree about Budapest - loved it and so cheap!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was a kid, I could tell a family was rich if they flew for all their vacations. Flying was so expensive back then, and kids didn’t fly that much. So if you met a 10 year old who had flown a lot, either his family was rich or his parents were divorced, or both.

That changed as I got older because flying got more affordable with budget airlines. I still think that a vacation where you have to fly us out of reach for a lot of families, especially if you have more than two kids. It’s still and indication of wealth or at least an indication that you are well paid enough to have a decent amount of disposable income.

And yes, where you travel is a class marker. I remember when I got to grad school and encountered truly wealthy people for the first time. I was confused about the selectivity of their vacations. To me, I wanted to go everywhere. Prague? Yes. Norfolk? Also yes? Skiing in Colorado? Yes. Jersey shore? Also yes.

But wealthy people don’t like to go places where they will interact with people outside their class. Which leads to weird things where going to the Eastern Shore is “better” than going to Hungary because Budapest isn’t “classy” enough to visit. Extremely weird priorities! But you do you— Budapest was awesome (and remarkably affordable).

This is an interesting thought, and one I hadn't really ever thought of. But I think you're right. It's almost like a fear of the unknown. And I agree about Budapest - loved it and so cheap!

Yes the bold is completely accurate. Which is why they only go places they have been, or places that have been recommended by other people like them. Also there is a lot of staying in the vacation homes of family friends.

[Anonymous]

High class travel to me would be going places that are historical/educational and/or off the beaten path. Something like a safari in South Africa, going to Patagonia or Lapland.

Then there’s old money travel. That’s going to Mill Reef, Little Dix Bay or Lyford Cay in in Caribbean. Skiing is at Vail or Jackson Hole. For summers, it’s spending the month at your family’s house at some small New England enclave that most people have never heard of like Dark Harbor or Fenwick.

Any schmuck with money can go to St. Barts or Nantucket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was a kid, I could tell a family was rich if they flew for all their vacations. Flying was so expensive back then, and kids didn’t fly that much. So if you met a 10 year old who had flown a lot, either his family was rich or his parents were divorced, or both.

That changed as I got older because flying got more affordable with budget airlines. I still think that a vacation where you have to fly us out of reach for a lot of families, especially if you have more than two kids. It’s still and indication of wealth or at least an indication that you are well paid enough to have a decent amount of disposable income.

And yes, where you travel is a class marker. I remember when I got to grad school and encountered truly wealthy people for the first time. I was confused about the selectivity of their vacations. To me, I wanted to go everywhere. Prague? Yes. Norfolk? Also yes? Skiing in Colorado? Yes. Jersey shore? Also yes.

But wealthy people don’t like to go places where they will interact with people outside their class. Which leads to weird things where going to the Eastern Shore is “better” than going to Hungary because Budapest isn’t “classy” enough to visit. Extremely weird priorities! But you do you— Budapest was awesome (and remarkably affordable).

I feel the same way. It seems to me that many "upper class" people I meet go to the same places every year. They "only" ski in Jackson Hole or Aspen. They've never been to a ton of other amazing ski resorts for something different. They own a beach house somewhere on the East Coast so they only go to their beach town but miss out on the many other great beach towns. They only go to a certain resort or island in the Caribbean when they want a winter weather escape, thus missing out on many other great island experiences. I find that a lot of these people have never been to Asia or anywhere in Central or South America. Like you said, they'd go to Saint-Tropez, Antibes, Positano etc. but never Budapest.

I like to go somewhere different each time. I like new experiences and adventures. I think it would be boring to go to the same 3-4 places every year. Does that make me middle class? lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:High class travel to me would be going places that are historical/educational and/or off the beaten path. Something like a safari in South Africa, going to Patagonia or Lapland.

Then there’s old money travel. That’s going to Mill Reef, Little Dix Bay or Lyford Cay in in Caribbean. Skiing is at Vail or Jackson Hole. For summers, it’s spending the month at your family’s house at some small New England enclave that most people have never heard of like Dark Harbor or Fenwick.

Any schmuck with money can go to St. Barts or Nantucket.

There's also something with old money where the houses may be big, but often times they're a bit run down or have no air conditioning. Not flashy at all. I grew up in New England and knew some families like this. Nobody was going to St. Barts, but they all had their rambling houses in Maine.

[Anonymous]

What’s the one European christmas market you all recommend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High class travel to me would be going places that are historical/educational and/or off the beaten path. Something like a safari in South Africa, going to Patagonia or Lapland.

Then there’s old money travel. That’s going to Mill Reef, Little Dix Bay or Lyford Cay in in Caribbean. Skiing is at Vail or Jackson Hole. For summers, it’s spending the month at your family’s house at some small New England enclave that most people have never heard of like Dark Harbor or Fenwick.

Any schmuck with money can go to St. Barts or Nantucket.

There's also something with old money where the houses may be big, but often times they're a bit run down or have no air conditioning. Not flashy at all. I grew up in New England and knew some families like this. Nobody was going to St. Barts, but they all had their rambling houses in Maine.

+1