Schools simply do not teach writing any more

[Anonymous]

I am a fan of Sadlier's Grammar Workshop and Vocabulary Workshop. Vocabulary Workshop is Grades 1-12 and the grammar books go from Grades 3-12. They use simple, effective exercises that take just a few minutes a day.

[Anonymous]

They don't. It is part of the reason we moved to private school, unfortunately. The difference in writing education is huge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach writing and I’m a teacher in my twenties. I was also taught writing from elementary school through college. I attended public school. I don’t know why you don’t think your child hasn’t received any instruction in writing. I think it’s more likely that your child doesn’t enjoy it and doesn’t pay attention. At a fifth grade level he should be able to write a paragraph, yes. It seems like he needs some additional scaffolds, like a graphic organizer. Some kids get overwhelmed and need help organizing their ideas. I would reach out to his teacher with some specific questions about his needs and possible supports (ex I noticed he has trouble coming up with a topic sentence, he doesn’t know how to maintain parallel structure, he doesn’t consistently write full sentences, etc).

With all due respect, I am sick and tired of teachers throwing graphic organizers at him saying that's all he needs. You should know as a teacher that a graphic organizer will do nothing for him if he doesn't know basic sentence structure and spelling. You are right that he doesn't enjoy it, but one reason for that that he is really unsure of himself and doesn't know what to do. Who would enjoy it in that case? He is a hard worker, above-average reader, and great in math. By all means, he should be able to write. The school has failed him.

+1 Former teacher here and PP is spot on. I have seen this so many times. Especially with boys, though not exclusively. Writing teacher in your twenties, when over half the class needs the supports you describe, it's a sign that the curriculum needed to do more explicit teaching in these areas.

I teach special education so of course they need supports-you don’t need to be snarky about it. It does sound like your son has some kind of issue if he’s so unsure that he can’t even write a sentence as a fifth grader. I wasn’t aware it was that much of a problem from your original post. Perhaps you should have him evaluated for dysgraphia. I thought you were saying he has trouble organizing ideas in a longer piece of writing. Writing a single word or sentence should not be such a labor at that age, to be frank.
I gave you honest advice-there’s a reason teachers roll their eyes at you when you ask for something. You should probably teach him to ask for help instead of being rude to other people. A little respect goes a long way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach writing and I’m a teacher in my twenties. I was also taught writing from elementary school through college. I attended public school. I don’t know why you don’t think your child hasn’t received any instruction in writing. I think it’s more likely that your child doesn’t enjoy it and doesn’t pay attention. At a fifth grade level he should be able to write a paragraph, yes. It seems like he needs some additional scaffolds, like a graphic organizer. Some kids get overwhelmed and need help organizing their ideas. I would reach out to his teacher with some specific questions about his needs and possible supports (ex I noticed he has trouble coming up with a topic sentence, he doesn’t know how to maintain parallel structure, he doesn’t consistently write full sentences, etc).

With all due respect, I am sick and tired of teachers throwing graphic organizers at him saying that's all he needs. You should know as a teacher that a graphic organizer will do nothing for him if he doesn't know basic sentence structure and spelling. You are right that he doesn't enjoy it, but one reason for that that he is really unsure of himself and doesn't know what to do. Who would enjoy it in that case? He is a hard worker, above-average reader, and great in math. By all means, he should be able to write. The school has failed him.

+1 Former teacher here and PP is spot on. I have seen this so many times. Especially with boys, though not exclusively. Writing teacher in your twenties, when over half the class needs the supports you describe, it's a sign that the curriculum needed to do more explicit teaching in these areas.

I teach special education so of course they need supports-you don’t need to be snarky about it. It does sound like your son has some kind of issue if he’s so unsure that he can’t even write a sentence as a fifth grader. I wasn’t aware it was that much of a problem from your original post. Perhaps you should have him evaluated for dysgraphia. I thought you were saying he has trouble organizing ideas in a longer piece of writing. Writing a single word or sentence should not be such a labor at that age, to be frank.
I gave you honest advice-there’s a reason teachers roll their eyes at you when you ask for something. You should probably teach him to ask for help instead of being rude to other people. A little respect goes a long way.

What are you even talking about? I suggest you listen to the parents when they are telling you things are not working. Do you think this is the first time I'm asking for help for him? I have been offered graphic organizers for him since 2nd grade. Quite frankly, giving him a sheet of paper and saying "good luck" is a lot easier than teaching him. Do you not think I've been brushed off by many 20-year olds who just started to teach and think they have the answers to everything. Let me know when you gain some experience teaching and then we can have a real conversation.

I am stating the facts. Schools are failing our children. I'm not saying it's your fault as a teacher. You do what your district tells you to do. You follow the rules. I get it. I also know what I got as a child at school and what my child is not getting today.

[Anonymous]

Guys, what can we DO??? There seems to be so many of us parents who feel the same. How can we change this? I always ask this question, and no one has answers.
How can we organize?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach writing and I’m a teacher in my twenties. I was also taught writing from elementary school through college. I attended public school. I don’t know why you don’t think your child hasn’t received any instruction in writing. I think it’s more likely that your child doesn’t enjoy it and doesn’t pay attention. At a fifth grade level he should be able to write a paragraph, yes. It seems like he needs some additional scaffolds, like a graphic organizer. Some kids get overwhelmed and need help organizing their ideas. I would reach out to his teacher with some specific questions about his needs and possible supports (ex I noticed he has trouble coming up with a topic sentence, he doesn’t know how to maintain parallel structure, he doesn’t consistently write full sentences, etc).

With all due respect, I am sick and tired of teachers throwing graphic organizers at him saying that's all he needs. You should know as a teacher that a graphic organizer will do nothing for him if he doesn't know basic sentence structure and spelling. You are right that he doesn't enjoy it, but one reason for that that he is really unsure of himself and doesn't know what to do. Who would enjoy it in that case? He is a hard worker, above-average reader, and great in math. By all means, he should be able to write. The school has failed him.

+1 Former teacher here and PP is spot on. I have seen this so many times. Especially with boys, though not exclusively. Writing teacher in your twenties, when over half the class needs the supports you describe, it's a sign that the curriculum needed to do more explicit teaching in these areas.

I teach special education so of course they need supports-you don’t need to be snarky about it. It does sound like your son has some kind of issue if he’s so unsure that he can’t even write a sentence as a fifth grader. I wasn’t aware it was that much of a problem from your original post. Perhaps you should have him evaluated for dysgraphia. I thought you were saying he has trouble organizing ideas in a longer piece of writing. Writing a single word or sentence should not be such a labor at that age, to be frank.
I gave you honest advice-there’s a reason teachers roll their eyes at you when you ask for something. You should probably teach him to ask for help instead of being rude to other people. A little respect goes a long way.

What are you even talking about? I suggest you listen to the parents when they are telling you things are not working. Do you think this is the first time I'm asking for help for him? I have been offered graphic organizers for him since 2nd grade. Quite frankly, giving him a sheet of paper and saying "good luck" is a lot easier than teaching him. Do you not think I've been brushed off by many 20-year olds who just started to teach and think they have the answers to everything. Let me know when you gain some experience teaching and then we can have a real conversation.

I am stating the facts. Schools are failing our children. I'm not saying it's your fault as a teacher. You do what your district tells you to do. You follow the rules. I get it. I also know what I got as a child at school and what my child is not getting today.

NP here, but no. School may be failing YOUR child, but my DCPS public school have been teaching my kids how to spell and write since K. They even learned copy-editing marks, which I love.

I also think you may need to speak to the teacher- are you sure what he turned in was a final copy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Guys, what can we DO??? There seems to be so many of us parents who feel the same. How can we change this? I always ask this question, and no one has answers.
How can we organize?

OP here. That is what I want to know too. How do we petition the chancellor to make some changes in the curriculum?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you’re looking for a supplement and don’t mind Mennonite content, Rod and Staff publishes VERY thorough grammar books for grades 2-10. They are cheap (around $10) and really well done, covering things like writing from notes, outlining, poetry as well as diagramming, parts of speech, verb tenses, etc.

You can view samples and purchase at milestonebooks.com.

My kid is similar to yours and having explicit grammar instruction really helped because then I could say, “you need an active verb instead of a participle” and she would get it and make the change, rather than relying on “that doesn’t sound right, does it?” which did not always work for my kid.

Alternatively if you plan for your child to take an inflected language (Latin, Russian, Ancient Greek) in middle and high school, they will learn more than anyone ever wanted to know about grammar because all the words in the sentence change based on their role in the sentence - so that may help too if you want to wait a bit.

OP here. I'm Eastern European and grammar was drilled into us the entire time we were in school. Thank you for the suggestions. I will definitely check it out. I have to bridge the gap somehow.

I totally agree! I have taken all three of those languages—and have professional proficiency in Russian—and completely agree that those languages involves a lot of instruction in grammar.

Latin is an excellent language for learning grammar and translation. I learned it (and Ancient Greek) before Russian and found it extremely helpful, not least because Cyrillic is essentially a combination of Latin, Greek, and a couple of idiosyncratic letters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Guys, what can we DO??? There seems to be so many of us parents who feel the same. How can we change this? I always ask this question, and no one has answers.
How can we organize?

Sadly, I’ve come to the conclusion there’s no changing it, especially in time for your particular kid to benefit.

We’re paying for private school. I’m not throwing my kid into this mess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach writing and I’m a teacher in my twenties. I was also taught writing from elementary school through college. I attended public school. I don’t know why you don’t think your child hasn’t received any instruction in writing. I think it’s more likely that your child doesn’t enjoy it and doesn’t pay attention. At a fifth grade level he should be able to write a paragraph, yes. It seems like he needs some additional scaffolds, like a graphic organizer. Some kids get overwhelmed and need help organizing their ideas. I would reach out to his teacher with some specific questions about his needs and possible supports (ex I noticed he has trouble coming up with a topic sentence, he doesn’t know how to maintain parallel structure, he doesn’t consistently write full sentences, etc).

With all due respect, I am sick and tired of teachers throwing graphic organizers at him saying that's all he needs. You should know as a teacher that a graphic organizer will do nothing for him if he doesn't know basic sentence structure and spelling. You are right that he doesn't enjoy it, but one reason for that that he is really unsure of himself and doesn't know what to do. Who would enjoy it in that case? He is a hard worker, above-average reader, and great in math. By all means, he should be able to write. The school has failed him.

+1 Former teacher here and PP is spot on. I have seen this so many times. Especially with boys, though not exclusively. Writing teacher in your twenties, when over half the class needs the supports you describe, it's a sign that the curriculum needed to do more explicit teaching in these areas.

I teach special education so of course they need supports-you don’t need to be snarky about it. It does sound like your son has some kind of issue if he’s so unsure that he can’t even write a sentence as a fifth grader. I wasn’t aware it was that much of a problem from your original post. Perhaps you should have him evaluated for dysgraphia. I thought you were saying he has trouble organizing ideas in a longer piece of writing. Writing a single word or sentence should not be such a labor at that age, to be frank.
I gave you honest advice-there’s a reason teachers roll their eyes at you when you ask for something. You should probably teach him to ask for help instead of being rude to other people. A little respect goes a long way.

What are you even talking about? I suggest you listen to the parents when they are telling you things are not working. Do you think this is the first time I'm asking for help for him? I have been offered graphic organizers for him since 2nd grade. Quite frankly, giving him a sheet of paper and saying "good luck" is a lot easier than teaching him. Do you not think I've been brushed off by many 20-year olds who just started to teach and think they have the answers to everything. Let me know when you gain some experience teaching and then we can have a real conversation.

I am stating the facts. Schools are failing our children. I'm not saying it's your fault as a teacher. You do what your district tells you to do. You follow the rules. I get it. I also know what I got as a child at school and what my child is not getting today.

Actually, it isn’t a fact that schools are failing children. Your child should be evaluated if he can’t write a word or a sentence at ten or eleven years old. That is a fact. As someone who works with students with disabilities and has a degree in it, it sounds like you want to blame the school system for a cognitive issue with your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate rules (and I love grammar), too; however, in my opinion, the fact that they aren't learning it the way we did hasn't adversely impacted their ability to write. My older kids had to take a grammar quiz prior to the start of middle school and I was worried they would fail since they had never taken a formal grammar class; however, they aced it and now, as high schoolers, continue to write well.

Since you have high schoolers you have no idea what's happening in elementary schools right now. It has changed dramatically even in that short time frame.

Exactly. I can tell you that it has already impacted my 5th grader very adversely. And since they are doing some assignments in a blog I can read his classmate's writing and it's also abysmal for the most part.

Agreed. You know what has made me crazy? Starting around 6th grade, they do a lot of "peer editing." As a supplement to editing by the teacher, that's a fine idea. But one of my kids had a teacher who did nothing BUT let the kids edit each other. It was appalling.

This would piss me off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. Have them read more challenging books and over time it should self correct.

Believing that elementary school kids can induce basic principles of Language Arts from lots of examples is what caused this trend. It will not fix it.

I agree. But some posters on this thread will probably say that failure to induce principles of Language Arts from lots of examples are a sign the child should be tested for special needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate rules (and I love grammar), too; however, in my opinion, the fact that they aren't learning it the way we did hasn't adversely impacted their ability to write. My older kids had to take a grammar quiz prior to the start of middle school and I was worried they would fail since they had never taken a formal grammar class; however, they aced it and now, as high schoolers, continue to write well.

Since you have high schoolers you have no idea what's happening in elementary schools right now. It has changed dramatically even in that short time frame.

Exactly. I can tell you that it has already impacted my 5th grader very adversely. And since they are doing some assignments in a blog I can read his classmate's writing and it's also abysmal for the most part.

Agreed. You know what has made me crazy? Starting around 6th grade, they do a lot of "peer editing." As a supplement to editing by the teacher, that's a fine idea. But one of my kids had a teacher who did nothing BUT let the kids edit each other. It was appalling.

This would piss me off.

DP. Yes, it would piss me off too, but there is no recourse. What does one do? Complain to a poor teacher? A middle school principal? We are so discouraged from complaining! Our schools have switched to a system where students discuss answers with other students instead of sharing their answers with a teacher.

[Anonymous]

NJ public school here. I'm actually pretty impressed by the emphasis on writing skills in my district.

[Anonymous]

The student peer-editing is beyond useless, yet I saw more "peer" edits on my child's classwork than teacher edits.