Schools simply do not teach writing any more

[Anonymous]

Being in a position to ensure that my kids can write well is one of the MANY reasons we homeschool.

I think kids can pick it up in public schools even without explicit instruction if they read enough, but if they're just not the type to read constantly then they can fall through the cracks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not affluent but I send my child to a Catholic school. I'm a single parent and a public school teacher. The basics are not the newest fad so public schools aren't really interested in teaching them. You shouldn't have to pay tuition for the basics IMO.

Another single mom here. Do they push a lot of religious studies?

Push? The students have religion class every day and mass once a week. I am not practicing and I don’t agree with everything the Catholic Church does.

Not the PP, but we’re not Christian and wouldn’t be comfortable with that level of Catholicism in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, here's the counterargument (or, why not to worry so much): I didn't learn grammar or any formal writing techniques until 7th grade, and it didn't hurt me at all. I write for a living, have been praised as an excellent writer, and it's nothing that was formally taught to me before high school. My 5th grader has gotten very little formal instruction in writing, but is a huge reader; he is also an excellent writer, with little teaching from me. The more you write the better you get!

I don't expect him to be writing 10 page polished essays or diagramming sentences at his age; there's plenty of time for that. What's the most important is that he enjoys writing and doesn't dread it. Everybody just relax.

People who write well despite little formal instruction do so because that's where their natural interests lie. They can passively learn proper grammar and writing conventions without much explicit instruction (from reading mostly).

However, such people are a small minority. Most people need explicit formal instruction in order to learn correct grammar and formal writing. Quite frankly, even students who can passively learn will still benefit from formal instruction. Having a solid grasp of basics will always make for a stronger writer.

It's mind-boggling. Formal grammar and writing is something that has to be explicitly taught just like algebra or physics. No one would ever suggest that students can learn algebra or physics by osmosis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To hijack a bit:

I am a non-native speaker, I was never formally trained in English writing, and it shows. I know that writing is essential and I feel helpless in the sense that I can not support my kids. How can I support my child’s writing? Where do I look for tutors, and how do I evaluate their effectiveness?

Thank you!

I am in the same shoes. I get by well enough, but I am not confident about teaching my child.

Look for curricula used by homeschoolers, of which there are loads. Cathy Duffy Reviews seems to be a decent guide https://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula

Unfortunately, neither the reading nor the writing program I myself use is on her site. For reading, I use McGuffey's Revised Edition. For writing, "Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis", which I've mentioned in various other threads. This incorporates both grammar basics and writing instruction. It had been offline for a while, but I'm happy to relate that this program is now available again: https://treasuredconversations.wpcomstaging.com/2020/05/06/back-in-business-sale/

A major thing I like about "Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis" is that the instruction is very scripted, which makes it a lot easier to deliver. It feels like a non-native English speaker would be able to use it effectively. (I'm married to a non-native speaker, but my spouse makes me do most of the English instruction in exchange for taking on the math.)

[Anonymous]

Just relax - Maryland ranks 34th (behind Hawaii) on NAEP scores for reading while spending in the top 15 in the Nation on education. And local pols want to spend EVEN more through Kirwan for the same poor results. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result? Definition of insanity. People it’s not time to relax...unless of course you are UMC and care only about your own progeny. Yep your kid is probably fine but ethics may be something to revisit as a subject.

[Anonymous]

I have to travel to the UK frequently and I end up picking up age appropriate grammar, writing and spelling review books. They are often quite cheap and do the job. Some private schools here and the UK post their summer packets online as well. You can search using keywords like "lower school" summer packet or Year 5 workbook till you find what you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grammar and parts of speech are pretty easy to supplement with Khan Academy and Bee Star, if you are so inclined.

Yes, I will supplement, but that is not the point. This is the most basic thing that the school should be able to do.

+1

I agree, OP. Too many people are OK with this. Everyone needs to complain because this is the result: it's increases inequity in education.

It's not right! Yes, Catholic schools and private schools still teach parts of speech, grammar and technical aspects of wiring. So those affluent kids are getting a good foundation. Public schools across the country have phased this out, and children who need this foundation most are not getting it.

I can't understand for the life of me, how public schools would let this happen to our kids.

We moved out of DC into a suburb in “flyover” country with great public schools. I have 3 kids in elementary school and they teach writing, grammar and spelling daily. In 2nd and 4th grades now with remote learning, they have writing, editing and grammar lessons practically daily.

What state? I hate to say it, because I’m a progressive democrat, but, I think conservative states are holding on to more traditional education philosophies and progressive states are getting more experimental. I don’t see this across the board. Many conservative states are the lowest ranked in education. And many blue states are highly ranked (northeast corridor), but there are a lot of states in between. And I’m just curious if the democratic ones are too willing to throw away subjects like spelling, vocabulary, grammar in favor of progressive new trends?

[Anonymous]

My 6th grader went from papers with many misspelled words, run-ons and sentence fragments everywhere, jumbled and sometimes incoherent ideas, poor verb tense and number agreement, and all of those other issues at the beginning of the year to writing a pretty solid, coherent, grammatically correct 5 paragraph essay now. The solution was an outside enrichment class that uses the Michael Clay Thompson curriculum.

I can't comment on any other school systems, but FCPS is a huge mess with writing instruction. It's bad enough that they don't teach grammar, but the real travesty is that they emphasize volume over quality and give very little feedback. None of my kids' teachers have ever circled spelling or grammar errors, or have written comments to help tighten up the writing. For the most part, they just get a rubric sheet with numbers 1-4 circled in different categories, but without much direct feedback needed to improve. The kids write so much every single day, but very little of it is graded or given any feedback at all. They only very rarely are doing a first draft -> editing -> final draft approach to their writing. When kids don't receive the corrections that they need, their bad writing habits and poor spelling become ingrained and much harder to correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader went from papers with many misspelled words, run-ons and sentence fragments everywhere, jumbled and sometimes incoherent ideas, poor verb tense and number agreement, and all of those other issues at the beginning of the year to writing a pretty solid, coherent, grammatically correct 5 paragraph essay now. The solution was an outside enrichment class that uses the Michael Clay Thompson curriculum.

I can't comment on any other school systems, but FCPS is a huge mess with writing instruction. It's bad enough that they don't teach grammar, but the real travesty is that they emphasize volume over quality and give very little feedback. None of my kids' teachers have ever circled spelling or grammar errors, or have written comments to help tighten up the writing. For the most part, they just get a rubric sheet with numbers 1-4 circled in different categories, but without much direct feedback needed to improve. The kids write so much every single day, but very little of it is graded or given any feedback at all. They only very rarely are doing a first draft -> editing -> final draft approach to their writing. When kids don't receive the corrections that they need, their bad writing habits and poor spelling become ingrained and much harder to correct.

You’re right. I hope every parent sends a note to the school principal/school board. They will change unless large numbers of us put pressure on them.

[Anonymous]

Devil’s advocate: is the new technique making kids into more creative writers? If so, maybe it’s worth it? I tend to think of grammar and punctuation as the “easy” stuff whereas creativity and flow is where genius lies, and we shouldn’t tamp it down by making kids self-edit. Many writers also say that they write/type continuously and only edit later. Editors are a dime a dozen, whereas writers who can craft a compelling story and evoke feeling with their prose are much rarer.

I do agree that the dumbing down of kids’ books is leading to crap writing. I posted a few days ago about HP books not being good literature and was flamed, but frankly... they’re not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Devil’s advocate: is the new technique making kids into more creative writers? If so, maybe it’s worth it? I tend to think of grammar and punctuation as the “easy” stuff whereas creativity and flow is where genius lies, and we shouldn’t tamp it down by making kids self-edit. Many writers also say that they write/type continuously and only edit later. Editors are a dime a dozen, whereas writers who can craft a compelling story and evoke feeling with their prose are much rarer.

I do agree that the dumbing down of kids’ books is leading to crap writing. I posted a few days ago about HP books not being good literature and was flamed, but frankly... they’re not.

Kids today are too creative and expressive. They are taught that their thoughts and feelings are paramount. In order to break the rules in ways that are interesting and produce art you must first know them as masters like Cummings and Picasso did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader went from papers with many misspelled words, run-ons and sentence fragments everywhere, jumbled and sometimes incoherent ideas, poor verb tense and number agreement, and all of those other issues at the beginning of the year to writing a pretty solid, coherent, grammatically correct 5 paragraph essay now. The solution was an outside enrichment class that uses the Michael Clay Thompson curriculum.

I can't comment on any other school systems, but FCPS is a huge mess with writing instruction. It's bad enough that they don't teach grammar, but the real travesty is that they emphasize volume over quality and give very little feedback. None of my kids' teachers have ever circled spelling or grammar errors, or have written comments to help tighten up the writing. For the most part, they just get a rubric sheet with numbers 1-4 circled in different categories, but without much direct feedback needed to improve. The kids write so much every single day, but very little of it is graded or given any feedback at all. They only very rarely are doing a first draft -> editing -> final draft approach to their writing. When kids don't receive the corrections that they need, their bad writing habits and poor spelling become ingrained and much harder to correct.

Do you mind sharing the name of the class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Devil’s advocate: is the new technique making kids into more creative writers? If so, maybe it’s worth it? I tend to think of grammar and punctuation as the “easy” stuff whereas creativity and flow is where genius lies, and we shouldn’t tamp it down by making kids self-edit. Many writers also say that they write/type continuously and only edit later. Editors are a dime a dozen, whereas writers who can craft a compelling story and evoke feeling with their prose are much rarer.

I do agree that the dumbing down of kids’ books is leading to crap writing. I posted a few days ago about HP books not being good literature and was flamed, but frankly... they’re not.

I occasionally work as an adjunct at a public university in a major city. This type of thinking is why I have teach remedial English and writing to college students.

In the beginning, the poor grammar made me question whether they are fully fluent in the English. I thought maybe there were many international students who somehow made it through the cracks.
Then I found out most of them were born and raised in the US. When I explained the rules of basic grammar to them, they told me no one ever taught them. This goes double for formal writing. They struggle to write 3 page papers. They don't actually understand how to compose essays, how to build arguments, etc. They don't understand that formal writing requires a more formal syntax. The tone is overly conversational, there's slang, or sometimes, the kids sound like they're texting their friends.

Sometimes, they even have problems understanding academic texts and articles. It's not a content issue. They literally can't read longer and more complex English sentences.

A good number of these kids were considered high achievers in their high schools. Apparently, they wrote alot in high school but never recieved formal instruction and/or feedback on their writing.

Reading their papers is one most depressing and soul draining experiences I've ever had. If I wrote that way as an undergrad, I would've failed on the poor writing alone. The education system definitely failed these students.

Creativity is important but so are tools (grammar, writing) that students use to express themselves. Ultimately, the lack of proper foundation limits their ability to express themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader went from papers with many misspelled words, run-ons and sentence fragments everywhere, jumbled and sometimes incoherent ideas, poor verb tense and number agreement, and all of those other issues at the beginning of the year to writing a pretty solid, coherent, grammatically correct 5 paragraph essay now. The solution was an outside enrichment class that uses the Michael Clay Thompson curriculum.

I can't comment on any other school systems, but FCPS is a huge mess with writing instruction. It's bad enough that they don't teach grammar, but the real travesty is that they emphasize volume over quality and give very little feedback. None of my kids' teachers have ever circled spelling or grammar errors, or have written comments to help tighten up the writing. For the most part, they just get a rubric sheet with numbers 1-4 circled in different categories, but without much direct feedback needed to improve. The kids write so much every single day, but very little of it is graded or given any feedback at all. They only very rarely are doing a first draft -> editing -> final draft approach to their writing. When kids don't receive the corrections that they need, their bad writing habits and poor spelling become ingrained and much harder to correct.

Do you mind sharing the name of the class?

It's the Art of Problem Solving Academy over by Tyson's corner. The language arts classes there are very good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Devil’s advocate: is the new technique making kids into more creative writers? If so, maybe it’s worth it? I tend to think of grammar and punctuation as the “easy” stuff whereas creativity and flow is where genius lies, and we shouldn’t tamp it down by making kids self-edit. Many writers also say that they write/type continuously and only edit later. Editors are a dime a dozen, whereas writers who can craft a compelling story and evoke feeling with their prose are much rarer.

I do agree that the dumbing down of kids’ books is leading to crap writing. I posted a few days ago about HP books not being good literature and was flamed, but frankly... they’re not.

I occasionally work as an adjunct at a public university in a major city. This type of thinking is why I have teach remedial English and writing to college students.

In the beginning, the poor grammar made me question whether they are fully fluent in the English. I thought maybe there were many international students who somehow made it through the cracks.
Then I found out most of them were born and raised in the US. When I explained the rules of basic grammar to them, they told me no one ever taught them. This goes double for formal writing. They struggle to write 3 page papers. They don't actually understand how to compose essays, how to build arguments, etc. They don't understand that formal writing requires a more formal syntax. The tone is overly conversational, there's slang, or sometimes, the kids sound like they're texting their friends.

Sometimes, they even have problems understanding academic texts and articles. It's not a content issue. They literally can't read longer and more complex English sentences.

A good number of these kids were considered high achievers in their high schools. Apparently, they wrote alot in high school but never recieved formal instruction and/or feedback on their writing.

Reading their papers is one most depressing and soul draining experiences I've ever had. If I wrote that way as an undergrad, I would've failed on the poor writing alone. The education system definitely failed these students.

Creativity is important but so are tools (grammar, writing) that students use to express themselves. Ultimately, the lack of proper foundation limits their ability to express themselves.

PP here and that’s terrible. What I meant was, maybe it’s okay to let them write creatively early on (so we don’t stifle the creativity), but the basics of grammar and punctuation definitely need to be ingrained in middle or high school.

As for the inability to read research papers, I wonder how much of that is due to screentime and social media causing decreased attention spans? I see that in myself sometimes, which is why I’m asking.