Schools simply do not teach writing any more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Devil’s advocate: is the new technique making kids into more creative writers? If so, maybe it’s worth it? I tend to think of grammar and punctuation as the “easy” stuff whereas creativity and flow is where genius lies, and we shouldn’t tamp it down by making kids self-edit. Many writers also say that they write/type continuously and only edit later. Editors are a dime a dozen, whereas writers who can craft a compelling story and evoke feeling with their prose are much rarer.

I do agree that the dumbing down of kids’ books is leading to crap writing. I posted a few days ago about HP books not being good literature and was flamed, but frankly... they’re not.

I occasionally work as an adjunct at a public university in a major city. This type of thinking is why I have teach remedial English and writing to college students.

In the beginning, the poor grammar made me question whether they are fully fluent in the English. I thought maybe there were many international students who somehow made it through the cracks.
Then I found out most of them were born and raised in the US. When I explained the rules of basic grammar to them, they told me no one ever taught them. This goes double for formal writing. They struggle to write 3 page papers. They don't actually understand how to compose essays, how to build arguments, etc. They don't understand that formal writing requires a more formal syntax. The tone is overly conversational, there's slang, or sometimes, the kids sound like they're texting their friends.

Sometimes, they even have problems understanding academic texts and articles. It's not a content issue. They literally can't read longer and more complex English sentences.

A good number of these kids were considered high achievers in their high schools. Apparently, they wrote alot in high school but never recieved formal instruction and/or feedback on their writing.

Reading their papers is one most depressing and soul draining experiences I've ever had. If I wrote that way as an undergrad, I would've failed on the poor writing alone. The education system definitely failed these students.

Creativity is important but so are tools (grammar, writing) that students use to express themselves. Ultimately, the lack of proper foundation limits their ability to express themselves.

PP here and that’s terrible. What I meant was, maybe it’s okay to let them write creatively early on (so we don’t stifle the creativity), but the basics of grammar and punctuation definitely need to be ingrained in middle or high school.

As for the inability to read research papers, I wonder how much of that is due to screentime and social media causing decreased attention spans? I see that in myself sometimes, which is why I’m asking.

Not PP, but Neil Postman predicted it in 1985 in Amusing Ourselves to Death. You can get a more up-to-date explanation in Nicholas Carr’s The Shallows.

I was wondering about how today’s education deficits will effect college as I read this thread earlier. How are today’s kids going to follow a 3 hour lecture if we don’t work them up to it? Or do anything PP talked about?

[Anonymous]

I’m in VA and agree. It’s sad and maddening.

[Anonymous]

I bought several grammar workbooks and also supplement with things I've found online. I also make the 4th grader write and edit her work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader went from papers with many misspelled words, run-ons and sentence fragments everywhere, jumbled and sometimes incoherent ideas, poor verb tense and number agreement, and all of those other issues at the beginning of the year to writing a pretty solid, coherent, grammatically correct 5 paragraph essay now. The solution was an outside enrichment class that uses the Michael Clay Thompson curriculum.

I can't comment on any other school systems, but FCPS is a huge mess with writing instruction. It's bad enough that they don't teach grammar, but the real travesty is that they emphasize volume over quality and give very little feedback. None of my kids' teachers have ever circled spelling or grammar errors, or have written comments to help tighten up the writing. For the most part, they just get a rubric sheet with numbers 1-4 circled in different categories, but without much direct feedback needed to improve. The kids write so much every single day, but very little of it is graded or given any feedback at all. They only very rarely are doing a first draft -> editing -> final draft approach to their writing. When kids don't receive the corrections that they need, their bad writing habits and poor spelling become ingrained and much harder to correct.

Wow. This is so different from Catholic school. My 2nd grader’s teacher marks all spelling and grammar mistakes. Even on things like math work. He has to correct it and turn it back in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader went from papers with many misspelled words, run-ons and sentence fragments everywhere, jumbled and sometimes incoherent ideas, poor verb tense and number agreement, and all of those other issues at the beginning of the year to writing a pretty solid, coherent, grammatically correct 5 paragraph essay now. The solution was an outside enrichment class that uses the Michael Clay Thompson curriculum.

I can't comment on any other school systems, but FCPS is a huge mess with writing instruction. It's bad enough that they don't teach grammar, but the real travesty is that they emphasize volume over quality and give very little feedback. None of my kids' teachers have ever circled spelling or grammar errors, or have written comments to help tighten up the writing. For the most part, they just get a rubric sheet with numbers 1-4 circled in different categories, but without much direct feedback needed to improve. The kids write so much every single day, but very little of it is graded or given any feedback at all. They only very rarely are doing a first draft -> editing -> final draft approach to their writing. When kids don't receive the corrections that they need, their bad writing habits and poor spelling become ingrained and much harder to correct.

Wow. This is so different from Catholic school. My 2nd grader’s teacher marks all spelling and grammar mistakes. Even on things like math work. He has to correct it and turn it back in.

I think it goes to show how inconsistent FCPS is between schools because this had not been the case at my elementary school. My kid is in AAP so not sure if it makes a difference but the teachers definitely correct, edit/expect students to edit, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Devil’s advocate: is the new technique making kids into more creative writers? If so, maybe it’s worth it? I tend to think of grammar and punctuation as the “easy” stuff whereas creativity and flow is where genius lies, and we shouldn’t tamp it down by making kids self-edit. Many writers also say that they write/type continuously and only edit later. Editors are a dime a dozen, whereas writers who can craft a compelling story and evoke feeling with their prose are much rarer.

I do agree that the dumbing down of kids’ books is leading to crap writing. I posted a few days ago about HP books not being good literature and was flamed, but frankly... they’re not.

I occasionally work as an adjunct at a public university in a major city. This type of thinking is why I have teach remedial English and writing to college students.

In the beginning, the poor grammar made me question whether they are fully fluent in the English. I thought maybe there were many international students who somehow made it through the cracks.
Then I found out most of them were born and raised in the US. When I explained the rules of basic grammar to them, they told me no one ever taught them. This goes double for formal writing. They struggle to write 3 page papers. They don't actually understand how to compose essays, how to build arguments, etc. They don't understand that formal writing requires a more formal syntax. The tone is overly conversational, there's slang, or sometimes, the kids sound like they're texting their friends.

Sometimes, they even have problems understanding academic texts and articles. It's not a content issue. They literally can't read longer and more complex English sentences.

A good number of these kids were considered high achievers in their high schools. Apparently, they wrote alot in high school but never recieved formal instruction and/or feedback on their writing.

Reading their papers is one most depressing and soul draining experiences I've ever had. If I wrote that way as an undergrad, I would've failed on the poor writing alone. The education system definitely failed these students.

Creativity is important but so are tools (grammar, writing) that students use to express themselves. Ultimately, the lack of proper foundation limits their ability to express themselves.

PP here and that’s terrible. What I meant was, maybe it’s okay to let them write creatively early on (so we don’t stifle the creativity), but the basics of grammar and punctuation definitely need to be ingrained in middle or high school.

As for the inability to read research papers, I wonder how much of that is due to screentime and social media causing decreased attention spans? I see that in myself sometimes, which is why I’m asking.

No, you’re wrong and don’t understand how to teach writing or how children develop. There have been amazingly creative and talented authors throughout history, who all learned grammar and spelling and punctuation before wiring their first novel. Creativity isn’t stifled by learning the rules of the road. Rather, it’s enhanced, because when you learn the rules and norms effectively and EARLY you can move on to expressing yourself in a more effective and efficient way. Volume and creativity aren’t stifled or hampered by being given the tools to be a good writer. Just barfing on a page, or 20 pages, doesn’t reflect creativity. If nobody else can comprehend what you’re writing, or the mistakes are so distracting, you make yourself look foolish in the process. How does finding out at an older at that you’re not good at something, something you’ve been doing incorrectly and developed terrible habits that have become ingrained and are difficult to correct, how does that foster creativity? I promise you, kids who read a lot know that their work and the work of their peers isn’t up to snuff, they just don’t know how to improve. First you learn to walk, then you learn to run.

[Anonymous]

“ My 2nd grader’s teacher marks all spelling and grammar mistakes. Even on things like math work. He has to correct it and turn it back in.”

This is what ALL kids need. Seriously asking - what are public teachers being made to do / focus on that does not leave them time to do this fundamental work? And then how can we get those other things weeded out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“ My 2nd grader’s teacher marks all spelling and grammar mistakes. Even on things like math work. He has to correct it and turn it back in.”

This is what ALL kids need. Seriously asking - what are public teachers being made to do / focus on that does not leave them time to do this fundamental work? And then how can we get those other things weeded out?

Read to self (I just read the research on it in The Read-Aloud Handbook, it’s actually compelling for kids who may not read at home)
Project based learning (oh do I hate this one)
Catering to short attention spans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“ My 2nd grader’s teacher marks all spelling and grammar mistakes. Even on things like math work. He has to correct it and turn it back in.”

This is what ALL kids need. Seriously asking - what are public teachers being made to do / focus on that does not leave them time to do this fundamental work? And then how can we get those other things weeded out?

We have to find evidence of all of our teaching objectives to create binders to turn in each quarter that nobody looks at! Great use of our time. You suck. Now prove you don't!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate rules (and I love grammar), too; however, in my opinion, the fact that they aren't learning it the way we did hasn't adversely impacted their ability to write. My older kids had to take a grammar quiz prior to the start of middle school and I was worried they would fail since they had never taken a formal grammar class; however, they aced it and now, as high schoolers, continue to write well.

Since you have high schoolers you have no idea what's happening in elementary schools right now. It has changed dramatically even in that short time frame.

I also have an elementary-aged child (4th grade)so, yes, I do know what's going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate rules (and I love grammar), too; however, in my opinion, the fact that they aren't learning it the way we did hasn't adversely impacted their ability to write. My older kids had to take a grammar quiz prior to the start of middle school and I was worried they would fail since they had never taken a formal grammar class; however, they aced it and now, as high schoolers, continue to write well.

Since you have high schoolers you have no idea what's happening in elementary schools right now. It has changed dramatically even in that short time frame.

Exactly. I can tell you that it has already impacted my 5th grader very adversely. And since they are doing some assignments in a blog I can read his classmate's writing and it's also abysmal for the most part.

In addition to my high schoolers, I also have a 4th grader so I am familiar with the curriculum. What I am trying to say is that by 7th-8th grade, kids seem to get it without any formal grammar training.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate rules (and I love grammar), too; however, in my opinion, the fact that they aren't learning it the way we did hasn't adversely impacted their ability to write. My older kids had to take a grammar quiz prior to the start of middle school and I was worried they would fail since they had never taken a formal grammar class; however, they aced it and now, as high schoolers, continue to write well.

Since you have high schoolers you have no idea what's happening in elementary schools right now. It has changed dramatically even in that short time frame.

Exactly. I can tell you that it has already impacted my 5th grader very adversely. And since they are doing some assignments in a blog I can read his classmate's writing and it's also abysmal for the most part.

In addition to my high schoolers, I also have a 4th grader so I am familiar with the curriculum. What I am trying to say is that by 7th-8th grade, kids seem to get it without any formal grammar training.

That is such nonsense. Sorry. There are so many grammar rules that make no sense. You just have to memorize the rules. Sure, on rare occasion a kid may just pick it up from reading, but in majority of cases they absolutely need formal training in grammar.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s fine to supplement with more formal grammar lessons, but the best way to develop a good writer is to get her to read. She should read both books and newspapers. That way she’ll develop an ear for what “sounds wrong.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ My 2nd grader’s teacher marks all spelling and grammar mistakes. Even on things like math work. He has to correct it and turn it back in.”

This is what ALL kids need. Seriously asking - what are public teachers being made to do / focus on that does not leave them time to do this fundamental work? And then how can we get those other things weeded out?

Public school teachers have to plow through a ton of sh*t that private school teachers don’t. In my area, public school principals don’t count the number of years of experience at face value if one is applying for a job. I can’t remember the formula but # of years of private \=#of years of public. Private school teachers rarely have to deal will behavioral issues, and, uh, mandatory standardized testing. They also don’t have to deal with huge ability gaps in the classroom, or providing social services to them. How is this news to you??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since you now have the opportunity to teach the skills you want them to learn at home, order some workbooks and do it. Don't wait for the teachers.

All the involved FCPS parents I know already supplement heavily. Our kids will be fine. What about the kids whose parents can’t, won’t, or don’t notice they need to, though? Shouldn’t the teachers and administrators care that what they do doesn’t work?

Having schools closed has allowed me to supplement while working around only 2-3 hours of class instead of 7+bus ride time, and it has been glorious.

I don't supplement and never have. My approach with my kids' has been "slow and steady wins the race," for the most part. My older kids were in gen ed throughout ES and MS, but are rockin' it in HS.