UPenn's Head of counseling and psychological services commits suicide

[Anonymous]

I went to a different Ivy for undergrad and then Penn for graduate school, where I was also a GA in the undergrad dorms. I really don't understand where all these allegations of soul destroying environments comes from. Penn is fine. Virtually all its students are fine. The issues individuals have with Penn are commonplace among all Ivy schools or other top universities as well. Some kids do feel like a fish out of water for various reasons, others just never find good friends and have a lonely experience, some kids are pushed to overperform by their parents long before Penn and crash and burn when they get to campus. The school itself is not a problem, neither is Philadelphia.

[Anonymous]

It’s a quintessential HYPS reject school. Most of the hyper-overachievers there are painfully insecure about ending up there and they’re just insufferably obnoxious about proving themselves and getting to the “top”. The couple normal Penn alums I know were from in-state and hated it — like, “I’ll never give them a dime in donation” sort of hate.

[Anonymous]

Isn’t Penn is 80% kids rejected from HYPS and 20% Trump/Cohen Jersey/Long Island coke trash rich kids who were bribed in?

[Anonymous]

I don’t know if this was caused by Penn or not and neither does anyone else. It’s easier to blame the environment than to admit that we are all at risk, and all of our friends and family too. Love each other and hold one another tighter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s a quintessential HYPS reject school. Most of the hyper-overachievers there are painfully insecure about ending up there and they’re just insufferably obnoxious about proving themselves and getting to the “top”. The couple normal Penn alums I know were from in-state and hated it — like, “I’ll never give them a dime in donation” sort of hate.

Troll

[Anonymous]

He should not have been living separately from his wife and kids, especially doing that job. Poor family.

[Anonymous]

I hope there isn’t another scandal about to break, and he was fed up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing I struggle with understanding, and I mean this with kindness as my life's been touched by suicide too. Do you think it's possible for someone to just kind of lose control/snap and their body goes into autopilot and does it? Like as easily as I can lose my temper and raise my voice with my kids after a tough day/week. Or do you think it's always more intentional/thought-out?

I think there are many different paths to suicide.

For some it is an impulsive action - often after a moment of humiliation, embarrassment or abandonment / rejection. Being intoxicated is another factors in impulsive actions. Feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness, helplessness often are underlying. For example, suicide rates are higher after teen breakups.

For others it is the other end of the spectrum where it is a 'rational' decision. Something the person has thought very long and hard about and planned out and it is a very intentional. For example someone with a terminal illness who decides to end their life on their own terms.

For others it is more about mental illness and their mind takes them to a dark place where the light at the end of the tunnel gets further and further away. Their thinking gets distorted and their reality is skewed. They may plan it out or snap but it is based on irrational and self depreciating thoughts that come with the illness.

This is a really thoughtul post and spot on.

I was actively suicidal once in my life. For me, I was most like example 3. I was in deep post partum depression/anxiety following the birth of twins. It went on for a few months and I began to detach from reality and become dissociated from my own self. It was as if I was watching myself walk through life and didn't have full control over my actions. It sounds odd but it was 100% my reality. I couldn't trust myself not not to do something rash like jump in front of a bus. The depression made me fantasize about doing it. The scary feeling of dissociation made me think I was actually capable of it. I actually had to remove myself from potentially harmful situations. I spent A LOT of time around others because I felt unsafe alone with my own thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing I struggle with understanding, and I mean this with kindness as my life's been touched by suicide too. Do you think it's possible for someone to just kind of lose control/snap and their body goes into autopilot and does it? Like as easily as I can lose my temper and raise my voice with my kids after a tough day/week. Or do you think it's always more intentional/thought-out?

I think there are many different paths to suicide.

For some it is an impulsive action - often after a moment of humiliation, embarrassment or abandonment / rejection. Being intoxicated is another factors in impulsive actions. Feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness, helplessness often are underlying. For example, suicide rates are higher after teen breakups.

For others it is the other end of the spectrum where it is a 'rational' decision. Something the person has thought very long and hard about and planned out and it is a very intentional. For example someone with a terminal illness who decides to end their life on their own terms.

For others it is more about mental illness and their mind takes them to a dark place where the light at the end of the tunnel gets further and further away. Their thinking gets distorted and their reality is skewed. They may plan it out or snap but it is based on irrational and self depreciating thoughts that come with the illness.

This is a really thoughtul post and spot on.

I was actively suicidal once in my life. For me, I was most like example 3. I was in deep post partum depression/anxiety following the birth of twins. It went on for a few months and I began to detach from reality and become dissociated from my own self. It was as if I was watching myself walk through life and didn't have full control over my actions. It sounds odd but it was 100% my reality. I couldn't trust myself not not to do something rash like jump in front of a bus. The depression made me fantasize about doing it. The scary feeling of dissociation made me think I was actually capable of it. I actually had to remove myself from potentially harmful situations. I spent A LOT of time around others because I felt unsafe alone with my own thoughts.

I had a very similar experience after going off birth control while TTC many years ago. I had no prior experience with depression, and didn’t have a clue what was going on. I just started having constant thoughts that I was a drag on everyone around me. There are lots of buses downtown where I work, and virtually every work day I would think something along the lines of “I can’t step in front of that bus because it would be totally irresponsible. It would devastate my family, the poor bus driver, and the passengers and other witnesses. But if it jumped the curb, I’d be blameless and feel complete relief.” Once I got pregnant the feelings vanished, and I never had them again. Hormones and other depression triggers are both mysterious and extremely powerful.

I really wish this man had found a way through for himself, family and friends, and patients.

[Anonymous]

Why didn’t his wife move down with their kids? Why? That IS weird!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why didn’t his wife move down with their kids? Why? That IS weird!

You don't know someone else's situation! Maybe one of the kids has had challenges and is finally in a great school with all the right supports in place. Maybe his spouse, who also needs to work, hasn't found a job in Philly yet that would pay as well and be satisfying. Maybe they are underwater on their house in Ithaca and couldn't afford to sell it at a loss and then buy in Philly. Maybe one of the kids wanted to finish her senior year at the same high school and the plan was to move after she graduated. Maybe one of them has an aging parent locally who needs a ton of care. Maybe they were talking about separating anyway. There are about a million reasons why it hadn't worked out yet to be in the same place -- we aren't in any position to judge.

I have gone through several periods where my husband's job has required him to work out of town or travel almost constantly. Currently, he's been spending Sun-Thurs on a project in a major city out west. For what he needs to do in his job, for career advancement and for the money to help support us, he has to do it. It's not forever, and it really sucks, but it's what we have to do right now. I also grew up military and there were years when my father was stationed overseas -- for a full year -- or traveled so much that he was home 60 days out of 365. It was hard sometimes and especially so for my mom, but that's what my family had to do. There are so many reasons why a family might have to be separated for a while even if it's not what anyone wants long-term. It's not weird, just different from your experience, apparently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why didn’t his wife move down with their kids? Why? That IS weird!

Kids had school where they were? Wife had a job of her own? They were probably commuting some and waiting to spend more time over some weekends , holidays and the summer.
Poor man, poor family. How very unfortunate .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing I struggle with understanding, and I mean this with kindness as my life's been touched by suicide too. Do you think it's possible for someone to just kind of lose control/snap and their body goes into autopilot and does it? Like as easily as I can lose my temper and raise my voice with my kids after a tough day/week. Or do you think it's always more intentional/thought-out?

I think there are many different paths to suicide.

For some it is an impulsive action - often after a moment of humiliation, embarrassment or abandonment / rejection. Being intoxicated is another factors in impulsive actions. Feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness, helplessness often are underlying. For example, suicide rates are higher after teen breakups.

For others it is the other end of the spectrum where it is a 'rational' decision. Something the person has thought very long and hard about and planned out and it is a very intentional. For example someone with a terminal illness who decides to end their life on their own terms.

For others it is more about mental illness and their mind takes them to a dark place where the light at the end of the tunnel gets further and further away. Their thinking gets distorted and their reality is skewed. They may plan it out or snap but it is based on irrational and self depreciating thoughts that come with the illness.

This is a really thoughtul post and spot on.

I was actively suicidal once in my life. For me, I was most like example 3. I was in deep post partum depression/anxiety following the birth of twins. It went on for a few months and I began to detach from reality and become dissociated from my own self. It was as if I was watching myself walk through life and didn't have full control over my actions. It sounds odd but it was 100% my reality. I couldn't trust myself not not to do something rash like jump in front of a bus. The depression made me fantasize about doing it. The scary feeling of dissociation made me think I was actually capable of it. I actually had to remove myself from potentially harmful situations. I spent A LOT of time around others because I felt unsafe alone with my own thoughts.

I had a very similar experience after going off birth control while TTC many years ago. I had no prior experience with depression, and didn’t have a clue what was going on. I just started having constant thoughts that I was a drag on everyone around me. There are lots of buses downtown where I work, and virtually every work day I would think something along the lines of “I can’t step in front of that bus because it would be totally irresponsible. It would devastate my family, the poor bus driver, and the passengers and other witnesses. But if it jumped the curb, I’d be blameless and feel complete relief.” Once I got pregnant the feelings vanished, and I never had them again. Hormones and other depression triggers are both mysterious and extremely powerful.

I really wish this man had found a way through for himself, family and friends, and patients.

I had the same experience when I started menopause - I literally was thinking of jumping under a bus all the time. I started hrt within 2 weeks and those thoughts immediately vanished (and I had never had such thoughts or issues before).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think all schools can feel isolating. My nephews all went to Penn (one still there) and they had wonderful experiences. But in any school, some can feel completely left out of community. In a competitive school, they can overestimate the importance of grades in the grand scheme of their life.

This person obviously had his own issues, missing family and feeling pressured in the job. We need to understand the signals people are sending about their mental health is what I take away from this. Very sad.

This. I'm a clinical psychologist, and certainly know psychologists and mental health professionals who've had their own struggles and stressors. We're human, and I only hope this encourages mental health clinicians struggling to reach out. My heart goes out to his wife and three kids.

I am a social worker. The majority of the folks I know in social work or other helping professions often have mental health or other issues. Many are trying to help themselves by helping others. Many leave and do other employment as the co-workers and supervisors are far worse than any clients/patients you work with. I worked in several very toxic environments. I don't think that this is a University issue as it can happen with any employer. There is far more to this story.

[Anonymous]

There is also a great deal of pressure to be successful in the workplace, especially for men. He took this high level position that is a very visible position in the university. Mental health services and the people that run them are in a spotlight. It is quite possible he felt that he wasn't up to the task after a few months there and he became aware of the true complexities of the institution, he may have felt completely overwhelmed, as though he was failing, crushed by the pressure to be successful, unable to see how he could do that he needed to do.

I don't think that is the only reason or that it is specific to UPenn but we can't underestimate the social expectations on men to be professionally successful and to do that with no support or emotion. Men are often expected to care for the needs of others and to be the rock and support for the needs of others and to ask for nothing in return. Add to that not being good enough, not living up to expectations, feeling like an imposter, fear of disappointing others etc. That all takes a heavy toll. In men, unemployment increases the suicide rate - it is such a social focal point of male identity. He had just started this job six months ago - maybe it wasn't going well.