25th amendment time: stop treating Trump's mental illness as a personality quirk

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The instant trump is impeached or removed from office, millions of trump voters will pretend they didn’t vote for him. After WWII, my German grandfather said that no one ever admitted they’d voted for Hitler.

It is human nature to try to save face. No one will riot when trump is removed from office. There will be few whimpers even on Fox.

I'm going to screenshot some of the choice Trump-supporting facebook posts my ILs have made. They were pretty quiet about him today though.

I’ve been intrigued watching trumpsters’ breaking points with him. Of course I cannot know people’s private doubts, but I have seen their enthusiasm wane, I have seen armchair politicians go silent, I have seen hardcore anti choice Republican family members finally realize what they’ve been supporting... and switch to a Democratic Party affiliation.

The thing about firing Powell finally turned my hard-core pro-Trump brother. He's a classic "fiscal conservative" (couldn't care less about social issues) and Trump attacking the Fed really shook him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The instant trump is impeached or removed from office, millions of trump voters will pretend they didn’t vote for him. After WWII, my German grandfather said that no one ever admitted they’d voted for Hitler.

It is human nature to try to save face. No one will riot when trump is removed from office. There will be few whimpers even on Fox.

I'm going to screenshot some of the choice Trump-supporting facebook posts my ILs have made. They were pretty quiet about him today though.

I’ve been intrigued watching trumpsters’ breaking points with him. Of course I cannot know people’s private doubts, but I have seen their enthusiasm wane, I have seen armchair politicians go silent, I have seen hardcore anti choice Republican family members finally realize what they’ve been supporting... and switch to a Democratic Party affiliation.

The thing about firing Powell finally turned my hard-core pro-Trump brother. He's a classic "fiscal conservative" (couldn't care less about social issues) and Trump attacking the Fed really shook him.

TBH, I'd dare to bet that most of the "hard-core pro-Trump" brothers don't understand the reasoning behind the Fed's detachment from the executive office. To them, everybody is part of the swamp and it's just Trump fulfilling his campaign promise of draining it, regardless of whether he appointed them or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

Not sure what your point is. I used to work with somebody who had NPD. He was eventually fired. Not because of our non-medical diagnosis but for lying, rule-breaking, insubordination, failure to perform work and general obnoxiousness. So it is with Trump. We should fire him for his behavior, not his assumed diagnosis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

Not sure what your point is. I used to work with somebody who had NPD. He was eventually fired. Not because of our non-medical diagnosis but for lying, rule-breaking, insubordination, failure to perform work and general obnoxiousness. So it is with Trump. We should fire him for his behavior, not his assumed diagnosis.

Since you're simple, I'll try again. The DSMs (and indeed all of psychology) have long histories of appalling behavior. Given that, it might not be quite such a good idea to let them guide our politics, particularly when there are much more robust mechanisms, i.e. elections and such, that can accomplish the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

Labels aside he is incapacitated from effectively “presidenting”.

Lots of narcs (including malignant) are in positions of power. But the smart narcs are the most successful for obvious reasons.

https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-we-keep-hiring-narcissistic-ceos
Why We Keep Hiring Narcissistic CEOs
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic
NOVEMBER 29, 2016

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

Not sure what your point is. I used to work with somebody who had NPD. He was eventually fired. Not because of our non-medical diagnosis but for lying, rule-breaking, insubordination, failure to perform work and general obnoxiousness. So it is with Trump. We should fire him for his behavior, not his assumed diagnosis.

Since you're simple, I'll try again. The DSMs (and indeed all of psychology) have long histories of appalling behavior. Given that, it might not be quite such a good idea to let them guide our politics, particularly when there are much more robust mechanisms, i.e. elections and such, that can accomplish the same thing.

I am not simple and your insult simply detracts from your argument.

If we were to use the 25th Amendment in the manner suggested by the OP, it may or may not be informed by medical examination and a diagnosis. But ultimately it would be a judgement call by the Vice President and Cabinet as prescribed by the Constitution. You don't need a medical diagnosis to determine that somebody is out of their freaking mind* and unable to perform their job.

*Out-of-freaking-mindedness, a condition thought to be characteristic of goddamned lunatics, is not an acknowledged mental disorder in any edition of the DSM, but studies show that 99.9% of people can accurately identify the condition.

[Anonymous]

He has dementia. It’s as obvious as the nose on his face. Whatever his prior diagnosis might have been, that is disqualifying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

Not sure what your point is. I used to work with somebody who had NPD. He was eventually fired. Not because of our non-medical diagnosis but for lying, rule-breaking, insubordination, failure to perform work and general obnoxiousness. So it is with Trump. We should fire him for his behavior, not his assumed diagnosis.

Since you're simple, I'll try again. The DSMs (and indeed all of psychology) have long histories of appalling behavior. Given that, it might not be quite such a good idea to let them guide our politics, particularly when there are much more robust mechanisms, i.e. elections and such, that can accomplish the same thing.

Np here. Well I’m simply thankful the 25th amendment was ratified to the CONSTITUTION, to allow for the opportunity. And that it was written with some checks against it.

We definitely don’t need to worry that some rogue DSM-wielding hack will take any president down. If he’s found to be ok, 2/3 of both houses will vote that he’s ok, and he will be president again. So, there pp, isn’t the constitution lovely?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

Not sure what your point is. I used to work with somebody who had NPD. He was eventually fired. Not because of our non-medical diagnosis but for lying, rule-breaking, insubordination, failure to perform work and general obnoxiousness. So it is with Trump. We should fire him for his behavior, not his assumed diagnosis.

Since you're simple, I'll try again. The DSMs (and indeed all of psychology) have long histories of appalling behavior. Given that, it might not be quite such a good idea to let them guide our politics, particularly when there are much more robust mechanisms, i.e. elections and such, that can accomplish the same thing.

Talk about "simple." Autism is still in the DSM.

[Anonymous]

Personality disorder is not mental illness because there is no cure for personality disorder. I know a child who acts like trump does. I think he has the same personality disorder, but that’s just my observation. His parents and siblings are all “normal.” None of them seem to have the same issues as this one kid. He lies all the time, constantly, to teachers, parents other adults and to kids, about how great he is, how smart he is, how many awards he has won, etc. My child reports that all the kids at school can’t stand him. I can’t stand him, even though I like his parents and siblings. I don’t know where this affliction came from. It must be genetic or environmental, but it’s not caused by his parents, or his other sins would be like that too.

I wonder if that’s why trump’s parents sent him to military school — they just could not handle him. Btw, this kid is smart, in all gifted classes. It’s a really weird affliction. I feel so sorry for his parents and sibs who have to deal with this obnoxious child.

It’s not a mental illness. This kid is like this all the time. I think mental illnesses wax and wane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Wasn’t homosexuality and autism included not too long ago? This business of attributing “mental illness” to folks isn’t exactly foolproof and so isn’t likely a good mechanicism for political change.

Depends on if you take 45 years ago to mean "not too long ago" (homosexuality). It was removed from the DSM in 1973.

Autism still is in the DSM, as it is a developmental disorder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Whether they are in the DSM-V is beside the point.
Generally, personality disorders indicate permanent aspects of an individual's personality and behavior and also, I would say, a greater level of responsibility for one's actions than mental illness entails (and the DSM-V distinguishes between personality disorders and related mental illnesses). I think it would be very hard to make a 25th Amendment case because I don't think Trump today is any different than the Trump who was elected, and I think there would be a very serious Constitutional crisis if anyone attempted to make a claim that a legitimate winner of the election who has not become any more impaired than when he was properly elected (on the face of things) is now considered unfit. I do think it is a political problem which requires a political solution, NOT the 25th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Whether they are in the DSM-V is beside the point.
Generally, personality disorders indicate permanent aspects of an individual's personality and behavior and also, I would say, a greater level of responsibility for one's actions than mental illness entails (and the DSM-V distinguishes between personality disorders and related mental illnesses). I think it would be very hard to make a 25th Amendment case because I don't think Trump today is any different than the Trump who was elected, and I think there would be a very serious Constitutional crisis if anyone attempted to make a claim that a legitimate winner of the election who has not become any more impaired than when he was properly elected (on the face of things) is now considered unfit. I do think it is a political problem which requires a political solution, NOT the 25th.

+1
Thanks for contributing some sanity to this discussion!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

They are - all classified in the DSM-V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka Bible of psychiatrists.

Whether they are in the DSM-V is beside the point.
Generally, personality disorders indicate permanent aspects of an individual's personality and behavior and also, I would say, a greater level of responsibility for one's actions than mental illness entails (and the DSM-V distinguishes between personality disorders and related mental illnesses). I think it would be very hard to make a 25th Amendment case because I don't think Trump today is any different than the Trump who was elected, and I think there would be a very serious Constitutional crisis if anyone attempted to make a claim that a legitimate winner of the election who has not become any more impaired than when he was properly elected (on the face of things) is now considered unfit. I do think it is a political problem which requires a political solution, NOT the 25th.

I think the Trump today has demonstrated unfitness to an extent that he had not when he was elected. I do not know whether that was because something developed ex post facto or revealed itself ex post facto, but the situation is different, regardless of whether the man is different.