Who Completes the GBRS? AART or Classroom Teacher?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know whose names go on the form. The point is whose opinion counts. The admin can't really have a valid opinion other than make sure that the work samples warrant the rating.

Principal here: it’s truly a group decision. I do know the kids and take the time to observe them in class. And I know the ratings scale. The AART and the teacher have their viewpoints as well. We ask each other questions about the child, and we look at the work together. We come to consensus and collaborate to write the comments using the exemplar statements for each category.

How would you know which kid to observe in class if they are not in the pool by the NNAT?

And is it true (like another poster said) that GBRSs from non-center schools are higher than those from center schools?

Typically, principals or assistant principals visit 2nd grade classrooms in the fall so they can start to observe the kids in the pool based on NNAT scores. And then once they can do that for the rest of the kids from December through February. Their visit is typically very short 5-10 mins each classroom so I can't say they collect significant data from those visits.

It all depends on which center school we're talking about but generally speaking central schools have a lot more kids and more kids who are smart and advanced in math and reading..etc. so naturally it's more competitive and that includes GBRSs too.

I don’t think I agree that on average in grades K-2 Center schools have smarter / more advanced kids.

Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know whose names go on the form. The point is whose opinion counts. The admin can't really have a valid opinion other than make sure that the work samples warrant the rating.

Principal here: it’s truly a group decision. I do know the kids and take the time to observe them in class. And I know the ratings scale. The AART and the teacher have their viewpoints as well. We ask each other questions about the child, and we look at the work together. We come to consensus and collaborate to write the comments using the exemplar statements for each category.

How would you know which kid to observe in class if they are not in the pool by the NNAT?

And is it true (like another poster said) that GBRSs from non-center schools are higher than those from center schools?

Typically, principals or assistant principals visit 2nd grade classrooms in the fall so they can start to observe the kids in the pool based on NNAT scores. And then once they can do that for the rest of the kids from December through February. Their visit is typically very short 5-10 mins each classroom so I can't say they collect significant data from those visits.

It all depends on which center school we're talking about but generally speaking central schools have a lot more kids and more kids who are smart and advanced in math and reading..etc. so naturally it's more competitive and that includes GBRSs too.

I don’t think I agree that on average in grades K-2 Center schools have smarter / more advanced kids.

Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

I don’t think it would make sense that they would have a higher proportion of smarter kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

Where did you get this notion? My kids' center school is about the same size as each feeder school. Many of the feeder schools have more kids in K-2 than the center, with the total enrollment in the center rising for 3-6 AAP, and the enrollment falling in the base schools in 3-6 due to AAP transfers out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

Where did you get this notion? My kids' center school is about the same size as each feeder school. Many of the feeder schools have more kids in K-2 than the center, with the total enrollment in the center rising for 3-6 AAP, and the enrollment falling in the base schools in 3-6 due to AAP transfers out.

Our center school has 12 classrooms for K-2 total but local schools have about 6

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

Where did you get this notion? My kids' center school is about the same size as each feeder school. Many of the feeder schools have more kids in K-2 than the center, with the total enrollment in the center rising for 3-6 AAP, and the enrollment falling in the base schools in 3-6 due to AAP transfers out.

Our center school has 12 classrooms for K-2 total but local schools have about 6

where do you get your data? 6 classes for k-12 are 2 per grade. That is approximately 500-550 kids per school. no fx schools are so small. Schools in fx are generally overcrowded.

[Anonymous]

NP. Just adding some data to the discussion -

I just checked the data on FCPS dashboard, and the local center school has fewer second graders than any of the feeder schools. By the numbers, the local AAP center has 4 2nd grade classrooms, whereas my local base school has 6 2nd grade classrooms. But the center school increases to 6 or 7 classrooms per grade for 3rd grade and beyond, whereas the base school drops to 4-5 classrooms per grade.

Many center schools on dashboard show a significant decrease between 2nd grade gen ed and 3rd grade gen ed populations. So, they clearly are seeing a lot of students from their own school get accepted into AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

Where did you get this notion? My kids' center school is about the same size as each feeder school. Many of the feeder schools have more kids in K-2 than the center, with the total enrollment in the center rising for 3-6 AAP, and the enrollment falling in the base schools in 3-6 due to AAP transfers out.

Our center school has 12 classrooms for K-2 total but local schools have about 6

where do you get your data? 6 classes for k-12 are 2 per grade. That is approximately 500-550 kids per school. no fx schools are so small. Schools in fx are generally overcrowded.

FC is much bigger than what you can imagine, there are many schools that are much smaller than center schools in size. There are about 4-5 local schools in that size in my area too. You can disagree all you want and you can believe what you see in your area is all there is. All I'm saying is that from my personal observation, I see that my friends' kids got much higher GBRS from local schools than center schools. I'm sure whatever that actually means and how it's directly related to their overall results depends on each file but I'm just commenting what I've observed from several friends of mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
FC is much bigger than what you can imagine, there are many schools that are much smaller than center schools in size. There are about 4-5 local schools in that size in my area too. You can disagree all you want and you can believe what you see in your area is all there is. All I'm saying is that from my personal observation, I see that my friends' kids got much higher GBRS from local schools than center schools. I'm sure whatever that actually means and how it's directly related to their overall results depends on each file but I'm just commenting what I've observed from several friends of mine.

You can't look at the overall enrollment, though. You need to compare 2nd grade enrollment. Many base schools have lower enrollment from losing kids to the AAP center. Likewise, many centers have higher enrollment from gaining AAP students. All of this is immaterial when you're viewing the relative 2nd grade populations for each school. My quick glance through dashboard showed that many center schools have relatively low K-2 populations in order to have space for the AAP kids.

[Anonymous]

Okay. There are some truly tiny schools in FCPS. It would make sense that smart kids in very tiny schools might need AAP to have access to advanced math or above grade level reading groups, since they would lack critical mass otherwise. The same is not true for base schools with over 100 kids per grade, since they would still have a critical mass of advanced students.

It wouldn't be an issue of base schools giving higher GBRS and center schools giving lower, so much as it would be an issue of very small schools giving higher GBRS and larger base schools not needing to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

Where did you get this notion? My kids' center school is about the same size as each feeder school. Many of the feeder schools have more kids in K-2 than the center, with the total enrollment in the center rising for 3-6 AAP, and the enrollment falling in the base schools in 3-6 due to AAP transfers out.

Our center school has 12 classrooms for K-2 total but local schools have about 6

where do you get your data? 6 classes for k-12 are 2 per grade. That is approximately 500-550 kids per school. no fx schools are so small. Schools in fx are generally overcrowded.

FC is much bigger than what you can imagine, there are many schools that are much smaller than center schools in size. There are about 4-5 local schools in that size in my area too. You can disagree all you want and you can believe what you see in your area is all there is. All I'm saying is that from my personal observation, I see that my friends' kids got much higher GBRS from local schools than center schools. I'm sure whatever that actually means and how it's directly related to their overall results depends on each file but I'm just commenting what I've observed from several friends of mine.

Do you know the kids well enough to say that they should have gotten the same scores? Just because a kid from a base school got a higher rating then one at a center school, does not mean that the rating is loser at the base school. You can't possibly know enough kids well enough to make such statement, unless you work with these kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. Just adding some data to the discussion -

I just checked the data on FCPS dashboard, and the local center school has fewer second graders than any of the feeder schools. By the numbers, the local AAP center has 4 2nd grade classrooms, whereas my local base school has 6 2nd grade classrooms. But the center school increases to 6 or 7 classrooms per grade for 3rd grade and beyond, whereas the base school drops to 4-5 classrooms per grade.

Many center schools on dashboard show a significant decrease between 2nd grade gen ed and 3rd grade gen ed populations. So, they clearly are seeing a lot of students from their own school get accepted into AAP.

Our center school has 4 second grade classrooms and a local school nearby has 2 second grade classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Just adding some data to the discussion -

I just checked the data on FCPS dashboard, and the local center school has fewer second graders than any of the feeder schools. By the numbers, the local AAP center has 4 2nd grade classrooms, whereas my local base school has 6 2nd grade classrooms. But the center school increases to 6 or 7 classrooms per grade for 3rd grade and beyond, whereas the base school drops to 4-5 classrooms per grade.

Many center schools on dashboard show a significant decrease between 2nd grade gen ed and 3rd grade gen ed populations. So, they clearly are seeing a lot of students from their own school get accepted into AAP.

Our center school has 4 second grade classrooms and a local school nearby has 2 second grade classrooms.

This is the definition of anecdotal evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Center schools are twice big as local schools or sometimes three times, so you don't think there are more kids and more of smart kids there?

Where did you get this notion? My kids' center school is about the same size as each feeder school. Many of the feeder schools have more kids in K-2 than the center, with the total enrollment in the center rising for 3-6 AAP, and the enrollment falling in the base schools in 3-6 due to AAP transfers out.

Our center school has 12 classrooms for K-2 total but local schools have about 6

where do you get your data? 6 classes for k-12 are 2 per grade. That is approximately 500-550 kids per school. no fx schools are so small. Schools in fx are generally overcrowded.

FC is much bigger than what you can imagine, there are many schools that are much smaller than center schools in size. There are about 4-5 local schools in that size in my area too. You can disagree all you want and you can believe what you see in your area is all there is. All I'm saying is that from my personal observation, I see that my friends' kids got much higher GBRS from local schools than center schools. I'm sure whatever that actually means and how it's directly related to their overall results depends on each file but I'm just commenting what I've observed from several friends of mine.

I stand corrected!

Based on what you are saying, if local schools have 6 classes total for k-2, and if those classes range from 20-30 kids in size (and I'm being very generous with the 30), we can assume that the school will have 6 classes total from 3-6, assuming consistent enrollment.

so: 20 kids/class * 12 classes = 240 kids
30 kids/class * 12 classes = 360 kids

So you are saying that schools with 240-360 kids per school is the norm in FX county?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay. There are some truly tiny schools in FCPS. It would make sense that smart kids in very tiny schools might need AAP to have access to advanced math or above grade level reading groups, since they would lack critical mass otherwise. The same is not true for base schools with over 100 kids per grade, since they would still have a critical mass of advanced students.

It wouldn't be an issue of base schools giving higher GBRS and center schools giving lower, so much as it would be an issue of very small schools giving higher GBRS and larger base schools not needing to do so.

but even then, assuming that abilities of students in a school are normally distributed, as it should be, a very small school with good students will still have a peer group. IF a student is really an outlier, then that student will get a high GBRS, not because he/she comes from a small school, but because the student is an outlier. the only case where that may make sense is if all students were GBRS 4-9 and a kid or 2 are 12/13 and you want to give them a chance. But we don't observe such skewness in the population, especially in more affluent areas of fx county. I bet the areas where schools have such few kids are affluent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay. There are some truly tiny schools in FCPS. It would make sense that smart kids in very tiny schools might need AAP to have access to advanced math or above grade level reading groups, since they would lack critical mass otherwise. The same is not true for base schools with over 100 kids per grade, since they would still have a critical mass of advanced students.

It wouldn't be an issue of base schools giving higher GBRS and center schools giving lower, so much as it would be an issue of very small schools giving higher GBRS and larger base schools not needing to do so.

but even then, assuming that abilities of students in a school are normally distributed, as it should be, a very small school with good students will still have a peer group. IF a student is really an outlier, then that student will get a high GBRS, not because he/she comes from a small school, but because the student is an outlier. the only case where that may make sense is if all students were GBRS 4-9 and a kid or 2 are 12/13 and you want to give them a chance. But we don't observe such skewness in the population, especially in more affluent areas of fx county. I bet the areas where schools have such few kids are affluent.

The whole idea of very small schools is foreign to me. In my area, all of the feeder schools and the center are quite large. Each of them seem to send in the neighborhood of 15-20% of their 2nd graders to the center. There don't seem to be any differences in the quality or number of kids in AAP from the center vs. from any specific base school.