How harmful has the MGTOW coaching been to young people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The common factor is that for whatever reason, someone keeps picking the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I certainly did in my 20s- I passed on many wonderful men who would have been great husbands and fathers because of my own deep-seated issues such as codependency. I have male friends who do the same, often choosing women based on looks, unavailability, emotional problems, etc. And also, emotionally healthy people will pass on you if they sense you have issues (as many men have done to me).

From a guy's perspective, when women spend their 20s passing up good guys in favor of assholes, it looks like they prefer assholes when they're pretty, interested in sex, and have their pick of the litter. Even if they start avoiding the assholes in their 30s, it looks like that's because they're only settling because they are running out of options and are looking for a more asexual kind of stability in their relationships rather than the kind of assholes that really get their motor running.

No, you're confused. Women like what you perceive as assholes but not because they are assholes. No one is excited about meeting or being with an asshole. Women are going for them because they have SOME attractive qualities. Like they are spontaneous, in touch with their emotions. unafraid to take charge of the evening, unafraid to speak up, have high self-esteem and don't put up with crap, or whatever. If a good guy had these same qualities on top of his good character, he'd have no trouble finding women.

Furthermore, I guarantee you that in your 20s, there were tons of unpopular, not-as-good-looking girls who would have loved your attention. But you, as many other men, probably only wanted to go for the top of the litter.

In my 20s I was poor (grad student), tall, thin, awkward, low self-esteem. I could only rarely get top-tier women so I ended up with nerdier, chubby (or fat) women, minority women, and women who were weird or not very successful themselves. I ended up marrying one of these.

Now 30 years later I am divorced, and can easily date attractive women in their 20s-40s, who are thin, educated, and have good jobs. It's amazing. I should have skipped marriage. I peaked somewhere around age 45. I have a few male friends with similar experiences.

Those thin, hot, educated women in their 20s-40s would never even glance your way again if you were to become poor once more. No one is randomly hot for a 50-something dude, cause no matter how well-preserved you are, gravity and age catch up with us all. I'm sure you know this, though you probably don't care.

Well now, let's not knock material success as if it is somehow irrelevant to our attraction. Of course he'd be less desirable if he became poor. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't I? Wouldn't anyone?

[Anonymous]

He probably gets a single Match date with "hotties" through carefully curated photos that conceal his age, and then sleeps with the ones whose insecurities he can exploit/ply with liquor. But they never call back because he's a crap lay

Since you have no informed opinion about another anonymous poster, why do you claim anything is "probably" true?

[Anonymous]

I'm a divorced 40YO man with two children.

I'm not familiar at all MGTOW, but I was really sad about getting divorced (my ex went back with an old BF), and a major reason was because I couldn't imagine many women would be interested in a divorced guy with kids. I did fine dating in my 20s, but only dated women my own age. Looking back, the majority (including my ex) graduated from HS the same year I did.

I've been stunned that my fears were for naught and have enjoyed my single life immensely. Ive met so many intelligent and attractive women of all ages and it's been great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the problem isn't that women are superficial, the problem is that they are angling for women who are out of their league socially and looks-wise (and of course getting rejected).

You have to be female. Do you not see the contradiction in your own words? You’re validating MGOTW central theme without even realizing it.

Where is a contradiction? What does being female have to do with this? Leagues work for both genders. No rich hot men in their 30s are coming for me - why would they?

Assess your league accurately, date within it, and you will be fine. Man or woman.

How are the parameters of these leagues determined? Physical appearance? Material wealth? Ability to tell a joke? Kindness? Loyalty? Some of those criteria are superficial, some are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the problem isn't that women are superficial, the problem is that they are angling for women who are out of their league socially and looks-wise (and of course getting rejected).

You have to be female. Do you not see the contradiction in your own words? You’re validating MGOTW central theme without even realizing it.

Where is a contradiction? What does being female have to do with this? Leagues work for both genders. No rich hot men in their 30s are coming for me - why would they?

Assess your league accurately, date within it, and you will be fine. Man or woman.

How are the parameters of these leagues determined? Physical appearance? Material wealth? Ability to tell a joke? Kindness? Loyalty? Some of those criteria are superficial, some are not.

Absolutely. And if the MGTOW crew were focusing on kindness, loyalty, and sense of humor, then that would be a good point. But they're not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a divorced 40YO man with two children.

I'm not familiar at all MGTOW, but I was really sad about getting divorced (my ex went back with an old BF), and a major reason was because I couldn't imagine many women would be interested in a divorced guy with kids. I did fine dating in my 20s, but only dated women my own age. Looking back, the majority (including my ex) graduated from HS the same year I did.

I've been stunned that my fears were for naught and have enjoyed my single life immensely. Ive met so many intelligent and attractive women of all ages and it's been great.

What ages are most of the women you date? 40 yr old single dude here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The common factor is that for whatever reason, someone keeps picking the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I certainly did in my 20s- I passed on many wonderful men who would have been great husbands and fathers because of my own deep-seated issues such as codependency. I have male friends who do the same, often choosing women based on looks, unavailability, emotional problems, etc. And also, emotionally healthy people will pass on you if they sense you have issues (as many men have done to me).

From a guy's perspective, when women spend their 20s passing up good guys in favor of assholes, it looks like they prefer assholes when they're pretty, interested in sex, and have their pick of the litter. Even if they start avoiding the assholes in their 30s, it looks like that's because they're only settling because they are running out of options and are looking for a more asexual kind of stability in their relationships rather than the kind of assholes that really get their motor running.

No, you're confused. Women like what you perceive as assholes but not because they are assholes. No one is excited about meeting or being with an asshole. Women are going for them because they have SOME attractive qualities. Like they are spontaneous, in touch with their emotions. unafraid to take charge of the evening, unafraid to speak up, have high self-esteem and don't put up with crap, or whatever. If a good guy had these same qualities on top of his good character, he'd have no trouble finding women.

Furthermore, I guarantee you that in your 20s, there were tons of unpopular, not-as-good-looking girls who would have loved your attention. But you, as many other men, probably only wanted to go for the top of the litter.

In my 20s I was poor (grad student), tall, thin, awkward, low self-esteem. I could only rarely get top-tier women so I ended up with nerdier, chubby (or fat) women, minority women, and women who were weird or not very successful themselves. I ended up marrying one of these.

Now 30 years later I am divorced, and can easily date attractive women in their 20s-40s, who are thin, educated, and have good jobs. It's amazing. I should have skipped marriage. I peaked somewhere around age 45. I have a few male friends with similar experiences.

Those thin, hot, educated women in their 20s-40s would never even glance your way again if you were to become poor once more. No one is randomly hot for a 50-something dude, cause no matter how well-preserved you are, gravity and age catch up with us all. I'm sure you know this, though you probably don't care.

Well now, let's not knock material success as if it is somehow irrelevant to our attraction. Of course he'd be less desirable if he became poor. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't I? Wouldn't anyone?

Yeah, I don't understand this argument. it implies attraction is somehow less legitimate if based on non-looks factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: younger women shouldn't believe that their Sexual Market Value peaks at the age of 22.

Except, it does.

Is there a corresponding study reflecting the most attractive age of men in women's eyes?

Pretty sure it would hover around 25. Because, duh.

YUP. 45 year old woman here. Young 20 something men are HOT to me.

There is actually a corresponding study. Up to about 40, the most attractive men in women's eyes tend to be about their age. Unlike the men where it stays about 21 no matter how old they get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a divorced 40YO man with two children.

I'm not familiar at all MGTOW, but I was really sad about getting divorced (my ex went back with an old BF), and a major reason was because I couldn't imagine many women would be interested in a divorced guy with kids. I did fine dating in my 20s, but only dated women my own age. Looking back, the majority (including my ex) graduated from HS the same year I did.

I've been stunned that my fears were for naught and have enjoyed my single life immensely. Ive met so many intelligent and attractive women of all ages and it's been great.

What ages are most of the women you date? 40 yr old single dude here.

For dating, 25-44. The woman I've liked the best and was hoping to have a long-term relationship was my exact age but we only lasted a month. I have a good career, but I suspect she will eventually remarry someone who is in the "famous for DC" category. The other women I've dated for longer periods of time (and called each other girlfriend and boyfriend) have been 37, 31, 30 and 25. I would have pursued things after a first date with a 44yo but when I asked her out for a second date, she politely let me know she's not interested. Presumably, plenty of other attractive and intelligent women see my profile and have zero interest, and that's ok. Can't date 'em all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a divorced 40YO man with two children.

I'm not familiar at all MGTOW, but I was really sad about getting divorced (my ex went back with an old BF), and a major reason was because I couldn't imagine many women would be interested in a divorced guy with kids. I did fine dating in my 20s, but only dated women my own age. Looking back, the majority (including my ex) graduated from HS the same year I did.

I've been stunned that my fears were for naught and have enjoyed my single life immensely. Ive met so many intelligent and attractive women of all ages and it's been great.

What ages are most of the women you date? 40 yr old single dude here.

For dating, 25-44. The woman I've liked the best and was hoping to have a long-term relationship was my exact age but we only lasted a month. I have a good career, but I suspect she will eventually remarry someone who is in the "famous for DC" category. The other women I've dated for longer periods of time (and called each other girlfriend and boyfriend) have been 37, 31, 30 and 25. I would have pursued things after a first date with a 44yo but when I asked her out for a second date, she politely let me know she's not interested. Presumably, plenty of other attractive and intelligent women see my profile and have zero interest, and that's ok. Can't date 'em all.

Cool, good to know early 30s women are fair game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like "Men can do pretty well in their 40's" is good advice for those who are getting discouraged by dating in their 20's and 30's, or who are trying to decide whether to end an unhappy marriage. If you're an average-looking, average-height, average-built guy, it might be easier to find a good woman in your 40's because that's the age where there are lots of divorces and perpetually-single women, and they might be able to overlook more than they would at 20. 20-something women can be shallow when deciding who to date. They might instead think, "this guy is nice, he's employed, he's educated, I should give him a chance."

I kind of feel like that's a cop-out. For the guys who are having trouble finding women at 20, the problem isn't that women are superficial, the problem is that they are angling for women who are out of their league socially and looks-wise (and of course getting rejected).

And by age 45 those same "out of his league" women will look horrible, and the women's personalities will be the same or worse.

A friend recently attended his 50th high school reunion. He said every single woman from his class looked hideous. Only half the men looked hideous. I had the same experience recently at my 30th. The homecoming queen had grown to about 300 pounds and was unrecognizable.

[Anonymous]

I can't decide if I'm more bothered by the rampant misogyny or the fact that the graph has no x-axis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't decide if I'm more bothered by the rampant misogyny or the fact that the graph has no x-axis.

Blaming the data? LMAO. These are female respondents! Let me guess, you're a postmodernist?

[Anonymous]

This seems fairly straightforward to me. As people get older, they tend to have more confidence, and also are better off financially (due to career advancement). So of course a man in his 40's can do well -- he's more confident and has his life together better than his 25-year old self.

I have some friends who were in the PUA scene, including one who used to hang out with Mystery (he had the pick-up artist show on VH-1). A lot of the guys I met were smart and had their life together, but just lacked confidence and to a lesser extent, style. I think those courses just help guys to build their confidence and dress better. It's hardly deceptive -- women dress up to get attention also. Basically a self-help course in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The common factor is that for whatever reason, someone keeps picking the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I certainly did in my 20s- I passed on many wonderful men who would have been great husbands and fathers because of my own deep-seated issues such as codependency. I have male friends who do the same, often choosing women based on looks, unavailability, emotional problems, etc. And also, emotionally healthy people will pass on you if they sense you have issues (as many men have done to me).

From a guy's perspective, when women spend their 20s passing up good guys in favor of assholes, it looks like they prefer assholes when they're pretty, interested in sex, and have their pick of the litter. Even if they start avoiding the assholes in their 30s, it looks like that's because they're only settling because they are running out of options and are looking for a more asexual kind of stability in their relationships rather than the kind of assholes that really get their motor running.

No, you're confused. Women like what you perceive as assholes but not because they are assholes. No one is excited about meeting or being with an asshole. Women are going for them because they have SOME attractive qualities. Like they are spontaneous, in touch with their emotions. unafraid to take charge of the evening, unafraid to speak up, have high self-esteem and don't put up with crap, or whatever. If a good guy had these same qualities on top of his good character, he'd have no trouble finding women.

Furthermore, I guarantee you that in your 20s, there were tons of unpopular, not-as-good-looking girls who would have loved your attention. But you, as many other men, probably only wanted to go for the top of the litter.

In my 20s I was poor (grad student), tall, thin, awkward, low self-esteem. I could only rarely get top-tier women so I ended up with nerdier, chubby (or fat) women, minority women, and women who were weird or not very successful themselves. I ended up marrying one of these.

Now 30 years later I am divorced, and can easily date attractive women in their 20s-40s, who are thin, educated, and have good jobs. It's amazing. I should have skipped marriage. I peaked somewhere around age 45. I have a few male friends with similar experiences.

Those thin, hot, educated women in their 20s-40s would never even glance your way again if you were to become poor once more. No one is randomly hot for a 50-something dude, cause no matter how well-preserved you are, gravity and age catch up with us all. I'm sure you know this, though you probably don't care.

Older and/or unattractive women aren't usually interested in broke men either. Women are wired to lose attraction to men who can't provide. A physically "hot" guy loses his appeal quickly if he is incompetent, unintelligent, and can't do anything useful beyond look "hot."

There is no shortage of 50-something women who just want to marry a guy with money so they can be comfortable and basically retire. They almost don't even care what a man looks like, as long as he isn't hideous and they can get along with him. They just want to relax and go out to lunch with their friends, take walks, do hobbies, etc. I get it.