NYT article: Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

If race is the predominant factor, can anyone tell me why minorities are not the majority in HYP and others and representation is usually in the low percentage?

Even if you were to fill every seat with white and Asian students with perfect gpa and test scores (disregarding other holistic factors), there would still be arguments over qualifications. The best university in Shanghai has to turn away thousands of students from the SAME ethnic group. So what would the rational argument be? I would think so many qualified students and just not enough seats.

I am a proponent of holistic admissions but I also realize that no premier college is going to admit someone who can't do the work. HYP (not the only game in town) is not going to risk their reputation of being academic powerhouses by admitting subpar students who can't handle the work.

There just aren't enough seats for everyone wanting HYP et al but with over 3000 colleges, there ARE seats available.

Because there aren't that many black students that are even remotely qualified to be at Ivy League schools. They give URMs big boosts, but even with that there just aren't that many who are close to Ivy League caliber.

This isn't for the Ivy League, but it's relevant WRT affirmative action: https://www.nas.org/images/documents/report_affirmative_action_at_three_universities.pdf

From the report: "The odds ratio for blacks compared to whites at NCS is 13 to 1, but at UVA it is 106 to 1 and at William &Mary 267 to 1. In other words, at UVA the odds of a black student being admitted is more than 100 times the odds of admission of a white student with the same qualifications. The odds of admitting a black applicant at William & Mary is more than 250 times the odds of admitting an equally-qualified white applicant."

It's interesting that as the university gets more selective, the odds ratio increases. I'd be very interested to see what it was at Harvard.

You do know that the number of white kids that are not even remotely qualified for HYP is greater than the number of African-American kids. Simple math.

Not sure why you are arguing. It is well documented, and easily verifiable, that top schools admit African-American students with substantially lower test scores and grades than other races. Yes, there are some African American students who would qualify anyway, but not enough for schools to be able to demonstrate "diversity." Because of this, they accept many who would not qualify if they were another race.

Yes, some less qualified whites get in due to legacy status. But this privilege is only available to a tiny minority of affluent whites. The majority of less-affluent, lower-middle class whites, as well as most other races, do not benefit from this, and are in fact hurt by BOTH legacies and affirmative action. Privileged whites and less qualified African Americans are the primary beneficiaries of this system. Middle/working class whites are constantly lumped in with affluent whites when it comes time to mete out government entitlements, to their disadvantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

If race is the predominant factor, can anyone tell me why minorities are not the majority in HYP and others and representation is usually in the low percentage?

Even if you were to fill every seat with white and Asian students with perfect gpa and test scores (disregarding other holistic factors), there would still be arguments over qualifications. The best university in Shanghai has to turn away thousands of students from the SAME ethnic group. So what would the rational argument be? I would think so many qualified students and just not enough seats.

I am a proponent of holistic admissions but I also realize that no premier college is going to admit someone who can't do the work. HYP (not the only game in town) is not going to risk their reputation of being academic powerhouses by admitting subpar students who can't handle the work.

There just aren't enough seats for everyone wanting HYP et al but with over 3000 colleges, there ARE seats available.

Because there aren't that many black students that are even remotely qualified to be at Ivy League schools. They give URMs big boosts, but even with that there just aren't that many who are close to Ivy League caliber.

This isn't for the Ivy League, but it's relevant WRT affirmative action: https://www.nas.org/images/documents/report_affirmative_action_at_three_universities.pdf

From the report: "The odds ratio for blacks compared to whites at NCS is 13 to 1, but at UVA it is 106 to 1 and at William &Mary 267 to 1. In other words, at UVA the odds of a black student being admitted is more than 100 times the odds of admission of a white student with the same qualifications. The odds of admitting a black applicant at William & Mary is more than 250 times the odds of admitting an equally-qualified white applicant."

It's interesting that as the university gets more selective, the odds ratio increases. I'd be very interested to see what it was at Harvard.

AA daughter at Harvard with 3.96 unweighted GPA from local private and 2380 SATs. Probably not remotely qualified, but carrying a 3.95 in college as a math major. Fact.

Senior AA daughter who I guess isn't remotely qualified either with an unweighted 3.95, local private school also. 35 ACT. Her posse possesses similar stats. We'll have to see how her 'remotely unqualified' stats are reviewed by the nine colleges she's applying to.

You are missing the point.

Your daughter will probably be admitted to every school she applies to because she is AA and has stellar grades. If she was an asian female, she might not be accept to any, despite her stellar grades.

Oucb, but true. Minorities are treated differently even though no one living now was a southern slave. Slavery is common worldwide in different forms, and nothing an AA would have experience of. If you want to know about slavery of today in america, google american sex slaves. They are asian and latina and european and indian women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

Yeah, they're white. Thirty percent of Harvard admits are legacies, at a school was overwhelmingly white at the time when the parents of today's applicants were attending. Today's college applicants were born around 1999. Assuming an average parental age of about 35 for your highly educated parents, those kids had parents attending Harvard in the mid-1980s. The percentage of Black students at Harvard then? Under 5 percent.

The single biggest advantage an applicant can have is legacy status, but the group of Black and Latino applicants who can claim that advantage is incredibly low. Thus is privilege perpetuated.

BS. My DS didn't get into Dartmouth where his dad attended but somehow was good enough for Stanford.

That stikes me as odd. To what do you attribute that?

NP

"Good enough" is not a useful way to think about it. If the kid had the numbers for Stanford, then clearly he has the numbers for Dartmouth. Both have many more qualified applicants than they have spots, though, and admission is based on other factors -- major, hobbies, demonstrated interest, likelihood of acceptance, perceived fit with the school.

And sometimes it's just luck. Your application strikes a chord with an admissions rep and they push you forward.

You should try not to take it too personally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

If race is the predominant factor, can anyone tell me why minorities are not the majority in HYP and others and representation is usually in the low percentage?

Even if you were to fill every seat with white and Asian students with perfect gpa and test scores (disregarding other holistic factors), there would still be arguments over qualifications. The best university in Shanghai has to turn away thousands of students from the SAME ethnic group. So what would the rational argument be? I would think so many qualified students and just not enough seats.

I am a proponent of holistic admissions but I also realize that no premier college is going to admit someone who can't do the work. HYP (not the only game in town) is not going to risk their reputation of being academic powerhouses by admitting subpar students who can't handle the work.

There just aren't enough seats for everyone wanting HYP et al but with over 3000 colleges, there ARE seats available.

Because there aren't that many black students that are even remotely qualified to be at Ivy League schools. They give URMs big boosts, but even with that there just aren't that many who are close to Ivy League caliber.

This isn't for the Ivy League, but it's relevant WRT affirmative action: https://www.nas.org/images/documents/report_affirmative_action_at_three_universities.pdf

From the report: "The odds ratio for blacks compared to whites at NCS is 13 to 1, but at UVA it is 106 to 1 and at William &Mary 267 to 1. In other words, at UVA the odds of a black student being admitted is more than 100 times the odds of admission of a white student with the same qualifications. The odds of admitting a black applicant at William & Mary is more than 250 times the odds of admitting an equally-qualified white applicant."

It's interesting that as the university gets more selective, the odds ratio increases. I'd be very interested to see what it was at Harvard.

AA daughter at Harvard with 3.96 unweighted GPA from local private and 2380 SATs. Probably not remotely qualified, but carrying a 3.95 in college as a math major. Fact.

Senior AA daughter who I guess isn't remotely qualified either with an unweighted 3.95, local private school also. 35 ACT. Her posse possesses similar stats. We'll have to see how her 'remotely unqualified' stats are reviewed by the nine colleges she's applying to.

You are missing the point.

Your daughter will probably be admitted to every school she applies to because she is AA and has stellar grades. If she was an asian female, she might not be accept to any, despite her stellar grades.

Oucb, but true. Minorities are treated differently even though no one living now was a southern slave. Slavery is common worldwide in different forms, and nothing an AA would have experience of. If you want to know about slavery of today in america, google american sex slaves. They are asian and latina and european and indian women.

Racial caste systems in the US still exist although slavery doesn't.

BTW, slavery still exists in the US and is still legal in US prisons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

If race is the predominant factor, can anyone tell me why minorities are not the majority in HYP and others and representation is usually in the low percentage?

Even if you were to fill every seat with white and Asian students with perfect gpa and test scores (disregarding other holistic factors), there would still be arguments over qualifications. The best university in Shanghai has to turn away thousands of students from the SAME ethnic group. So what would the rational argument be? I would think so many qualified students and just not enough seats.

I am a proponent of holistic admissions but I also realize that no premier college is going to admit someone who can't do the work. HYP (not the only game in town) is not going to risk their reputation of being academic powerhouses by admitting subpar students who can't handle the work.

There just aren't enough seats for everyone wanting HYP et al but with over 3000 colleges, there ARE seats available.

Because there aren't that many black students that are even remotely qualified to be at Ivy League schools. They give URMs big boosts, but even with that there just aren't that many who are close to Ivy League caliber.

This isn't for the Ivy League, but it's relevant WRT affirmative action: https://www.nas.org/images/documents/report_affirmative_action_at_three_universities.pdf

From the report: "The odds ratio for blacks compared to whites at NCS is 13 to 1, but at UVA it is 106 to 1 and at William &Mary 267 to 1. In other words, at UVA the odds of a black student being admitted is more than 100 times the odds of admission of a white student with the same qualifications. The odds of admitting a black applicant at William & Mary is more than 250 times the odds of admitting an equally-qualified white applicant."

It's interesting that as the university gets more selective, the odds ratio increases. I'd be very interested to see what it was at Harvard.

AA daughter at Harvard with 3.96 unweighted GPA from local private and 2380 SATs. Probably not remotely qualified, but carrying a 3.95 in college as a math major. Fact.

Senior AA daughter who I guess isn't remotely qualified either with an unweighted 3.95, local private school also. 35 ACT. Her posse possesses similar stats. We'll have to see how her 'remotely unqualified' stats are reviewed by the nine colleges she's applying to.

You are missing the point.

Your daughter will probably be admitted to every school she applies to because she is AA and has stellar grades. If she was an asian female, she might not be accept to any, despite her stellar grades.

Oucb, but true. Minorities are treated differently even though no one living now was a southern slave. Slavery is common worldwide in different forms, and nothing an AA would have experience of. If you want to know about slavery of today in america, google american sex slaves. They are asian and latina and european and indian women.

Racial caste systems in the US still exist although slavery doesn't.

BTW, slavery still exists in the US and is still legal in US prisons.

The problem I have with Affirmative Action is this: we are punishing teenagers for crimes committed by society as a whole. I wonder if there is some way we could help the descendants of slaves in a way where the cost is shared by everybody, and is not just born by some teenagers who happen to be white or asian. Maybe just by giving some money to all descendants of ex-slaves? Maybe by making their college education free, but they need to go to a college that is right for their grades?

[Anonymous]

Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

If race is the predominant factor, can anyone tell me why minorities are not the majority in HYP and others and representation is usually in the low percentage?

Even if you were to fill every seat with white and Asian students with perfect gpa and test scores (disregarding other holistic factors), there would still be arguments over qualifications. The best university in Shanghai has to turn away thousands of students from the SAME ethnic group. So what would the rational argument be? I would think so many qualified students and just not enough seats.

I am a proponent of holistic admissions but I also realize that no premier college is going to admit someone who can't do the work. HYP (not the only game in town) is not going to risk their reputation of being academic powerhouses by admitting subpar students who can't handle the work.

There just aren't enough seats for everyone wanting HYP et al but with over 3000 colleges, there ARE seats available.

Because there aren't that many black students that are even remotely qualified to be at Ivy League schools. They give URMs big boosts, but even with that there just aren't that many who are close to Ivy League caliber.

This isn't for the Ivy League, but it's relevant WRT affirmative action: https://www.nas.org/images/documents/report_affirmative_action_at_three_universities.pdf

From the report: "The odds ratio for blacks compared to whites at NCS is 13 to 1, but at UVA it is 106 to 1 and at William &Mary 267 to 1. In other words, at UVA the odds of a black student being admitted is more than 100 times the odds of admission of a white student with the same qualifications. The odds of admitting a black applicant at William & Mary is more than 250 times the odds of admitting an equally-qualified white applicant."

It's interesting that as the university gets more selective, the odds ratio increases. I'd be very interested to see what it was at Harvard.

AA daughter at Harvard with 3.96 unweighted GPA from local private and 2380 SATs. Probably not remotely qualified, but carrying a 3.95 in college as a math major. Fact.

Senior AA daughter who I guess isn't remotely qualified either with an unweighted 3.95, local private school also. 35 ACT. Her posse possesses similar stats. We'll have to see how her 'remotely unqualified' stats are reviewed by the nine colleges she's applying to.

You are missing the point.

Your daughter will probably be admitted to every school she applies to because she is AA and has stellar grades. If she was an asian female, she might not be accept to any, despite her stellar grades.

And that is because that Asian student is competing against other Asian students with similar stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

Ah, so they benefitted from slavery, is that your point? WTF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard" means one thing for sure...

The kid is Asian or White.

That is just complete bullshit. I think people who make statements like this must have a very shaky grasp of basic math. There are THOUSANDS of gifted students nationwide. Harvard only accepts about 1900 of them each year.

yes, but who are they accepting -- and what edge do THEY have. My guess is race/ethnicity is definitely a factor.

If race is the predominant factor, can anyone tell me why minorities are not the majority in HYP and others and representation is usually in the low percentage?

Even if you were to fill every seat with white and Asian students with perfect gpa and test scores (disregarding other holistic factors), there would still be arguments over qualifications. The best university in Shanghai has to turn away thousands of students from the SAME ethnic group. So what would the rational argument be? I would think so many qualified students and just not enough seats.

I am a proponent of holistic admissions but I also realize that no premier college is going to admit someone who can't do the work. HYP (not the only game in town) is not going to risk their reputation of being academic powerhouses by admitting subpar students who can't handle the work.

There just aren't enough seats for everyone wanting HYP et al but with over 3000 colleges, there ARE seats available.

Because there aren't that many black students that are even remotely qualified to be at Ivy League schools. They give URMs big boosts, but even with that there just aren't that many who are close to Ivy League caliber.

This isn't for the Ivy League, but it's relevant WRT affirmative action: https://www.nas.org/images/documents/report_affirmative_action_at_three_universities.pdf

From the report: "The odds ratio for blacks compared to whites at NCS is 13 to 1, but at UVA it is 106 to 1 and at William &Mary 267 to 1. In other words, at UVA the odds of a black student being admitted is more than 100 times the odds of admission of a white student with the same qualifications. The odds of admitting a black applicant at William & Mary is more than 250 times the odds of admitting an equally-qualified white applicant."

It's interesting that as the university gets more selective, the odds ratio increases. I'd be very interested to see what it was at Harvard.

AA daughter at Harvard with 3.96 unweighted GPA from local private and 2380 SATs. Probably not remotely qualified, but carrying a 3.95 in college as a math major. Fact.

Senior AA daughter who I guess isn't remotely qualified either with an unweighted 3.95, local private school also. 35 ACT. Her posse possesses similar stats. We'll have to see how her 'remotely unqualified' stats are reviewed by the nine colleges she's applying to.

You are missing the point.

Your daughter will probably be admitted to every school she applies to because she is AA and has stellar grades. If she was an asian female, she might not be accept to any, despite her stellar grades.

Oucb, but true. Minorities are treated differently even though no one living now was a southern slave. Slavery is common worldwide in different forms, and nothing an AA would have experience of. If you want to know about slavery of today in america, google american sex slaves. They are asian and latina and european and indian women.

Racial caste systems in the US still exist although slavery doesn't.

BTW, slavery still exists in the US and is still legal in US prisons.

The problem I have with Affirmative Action is this: we are punishing teenagers for crimes committed by society as a whole. I wonder if there is some way we could help the descendants of slaves in a way where the cost is shared by everybody, and is not just born by some teenagers who happen to be white or asian. Maybe just by giving some money to all descendants of ex-slaves? Maybe by making their college education free, but they need to go to a college that is right for their grades?

If the biggest "punishment" my white kids face in life is not getting into Harvard (oh the humanity!), they will have led very charmed lives indeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

Ah, so they benefitted from slavery, is that your point? WTF.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of expecting whites to atone for having slave-owning ancestors, when a large percentage of black folks have just as much slave owner ancestry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

It came from be raped by the white slave owners for generations. And, as this is America, that pesky "one drop of blood" rule still stands. I'm sure if AA women had had a choice, they would have zero slave owner blood also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

Ah, so they benefitted from slavery, is that your point? WTF.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of expecting whites to atone for having slave-owning ancestors, when a large percentage of black folks have just as much slave owner ancestry.

Sigh...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

Ah, so they benefitted from slavery, is that your point? WTF.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of expecting whites to atone for having slave-owning ancestors, when a large percentage of black folks have just as much slave owner ancestry.

Dear God, the stupidity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

It came from be raped by the white slave owners for generations. And, as this is America, that pesky "one drop of blood" rule still stands. I'm sure if AA women had had a choice, they would have zero slave owner blood also.

Do you not understand that you are descended from those "rapists" yourself? That's YOUR blood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most African Americans have a fair amount of European blood. Where do you think that European blood came from?

The irony is that many African Americans themselves are descended from white slave owners. A typical Irish American family that immigrated 100 years ago probably has zero slave owner blood.

Ah, so they benefitted from slavery, is that your point? WTF.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of expecting whites to atone for having slave-owning ancestors, when a large percentage of black folks have just as much slave owner ancestry.

^^Who let this mouth breather enter the thread? If you're representative of lower class whites being shut out by Harvard, then thank heavens the admissions committee is doing its job. You are a foolish liar if you claim not to know that white blood entered the black population through rape and slave ownership and that stigma attached to black skin continues to operate in America in ways that whites, regardless of ancestry, do not experience. Your post is just good enough for me to print out and take a shit on.