How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.

+infinity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).

Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.

No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.

Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.

.

New poster here. It sounds like he was a self-hating gay man. There are plenty in the world and unfortunately many kill themselves. Maybe he chose this other path based on that recent anti-gay talk he heard at his mosque. I'm convinced this was due to religion.

Here is the question - what do we do about imams who come to the west and spew hate to susceptible young men and women?not just of gays, but of the west? Where does free speech end? These guys have in incited so much violence, in London, France, Australia, here etc. Why do they still have a microphone?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.

Perfectly stated. His understanding of Islam, limited as it appears to be, likely played a role in increasing his self-hatred. Similarly, parental disapproval that was likely at least partially based on religion probably also played a role. So, Islam as he understood it doesn't get a clean bill of health in this, but the situation is much more complicated.

Complicated doesn't make for good soundbites or mental categorization. That's why you won't see the in-depth analysis, at least not in public. People want to hate a terrorist or a monster. But not a complicated person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.

Perfectly stated. His understanding of Islam, limited as it appears to be, likely played a role in increasing his self-hatred. Similarly, parental disapproval that was likely at least partially based on religion probably also played a role. So, Islam as he understood it doesn't get a clean bill of health in this, but the situation is much more complicated.

Complicated doesn't make for good soundbites or mental categorization. That's why you won't see the in-depth analysis, at least not in public. People want to hate a terrorist or a monster. But not a complicated person.

Actually, we know what radical Islam is capable of. Complicated person is a euphemism for 'he didn't mean to do it' and 'it wasn't his fault'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).

Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.

No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.

Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.

.

New poster here. It sounds like he was a self-hating gay man. There are plenty in the world and unfortunately many kill themselves. Maybe he chose this other path based on that recent anti-gay talk he heard at his mosque. I'm convinced this was due to religion.

Here is the question - what do we do about imams who come to the west and spew hate to susceptible young men and women?not just of gays, but of the west? Where does free speech end? These guys have in incited so much violence, in London, France, Australia, here etc. Why do they still have a microphone?

There are multiple Christian pastors who are lamenting that Mateen didn't kill more of them, from their pulpits. What about them? Why do they still have a microphone?

A principle if our country is allowing people to say hateful horrible things with impunity. It's what makes the US unique.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).

Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.

No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.

Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.

.

New poster here. It sounds like he was a self-hating gay man. There are plenty in the world and unfortunately many kill themselves. Maybe he chose this other path based on that recent anti-gay talk he heard at his mosque. I'm convinced this was due to religion.

From information I've gleaned from TV and credible 'net sources, I'm going with mental illness. Apparently, he was bipolar. He was probably also suffering from schizophrenia.

Here is a fact: when people decide that they're going to kill, it's darn near impossible to stop them. If by some mystical power every single gun were taken from every single law abiding American, criminals will retain theirs or gain access to them. That's what criminals do. They commit crimes. If they need a gun to commit crimes, they'll get them. And all the gun control in the world will not stop them. To think otherwise is naive at best and probably delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).

Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.

No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.

Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.

.

New poster here. It sounds like he was a self-hating gay man. There are plenty in the world and unfortunately many kill themselves. Maybe he chose this other path based on that recent anti-gay talk he heard at his mosque. I'm convinced this was due to religion.

From information I've gleaned from TV and credible 'net sources, I'm going with mental illness. Apparently, he was bipolar. He was probably also suffering from schizophrenia.

Here is a fact: when people decide that they're going to kill, it's darn near impossible to stop them. If by some mystical power every single gun were taken from every single law abiding American, criminals will retain theirs or gain access to them. That's what criminals do. They commit crimes. If they need a gun to commit crimes, they'll get them. And all the gun control in the world will not stop them. To think otherwise is naive at best and probably delusional.

Is there paperwork on that, re: bipolar?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).

Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.

No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.

Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.

.

New poster here. It sounds like he was a self-hating gay man. There are plenty in the world and unfortunately many kill themselves. Maybe he chose this other path based on that recent anti-gay talk he heard at his mosque. I'm convinced this was due to religion.

Here is the question - what do we do about imams who come to the west and spew hate to susceptible young men and women?not just of gays, but of the west? Where does free speech end? These guys have in incited so much violence, in London, France, Australia, here etc. Why do they still have a microphone?

Not a clue other than preventing their entry whenever possible. Is what he did a crime?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.

Paris terrorists drank. Afghanistan has it's boy sex culture. Noor Mateen should be charged with multiple crimes since she now has expressed knowledge of his plans. Scoping out Disney? http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/omar-mateen-s-wife-tried-talk-him-out-orlando-attack-n592051

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).

This! It's a hate crime dressed up for a terrorism party.

Phhft. Was Dachau a hate crime dressed up as part of a war? No it is both. Omar Mateen's sexuality changes nothing. Any reported hook-ups or just a presence in person and on-line? Pledging to ISIS is enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a hate crime. Period end of story. Even if he was conflicted about his own sexuality, it does not factor into the determination.

Hate is hate, is hate, is hate, is hate, is hate.

No crime is a crime of love, for that matter.

That isn't true. It doesn't matter if it were true, but it isn't. I could post many links to stories that were crimes of love, not just passion but love. Obviously this one was a hate crime though.

[Anonymous]

It could be all of the above. Self-hate; other-hate; violence; a longing to be part of something nasty, violent and "big" in order to dominate (ISIL becomes a convenient club to join--so many opportunities); hatred of women; hatred of "whatever" is convenient to hate. So many options, so many streams of opportunities converge...

So awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.

Perfectly stated. His understanding of Islam, limited as it appears to be, likely played a role in increasing his self-hatred. Similarly, parental disapproval that was likely at least partially based on religion probably also played a role. So, Islam as he understood it doesn't get a clean bill of health in this, but the situation is much more complicated.

Complicated doesn't make for good soundbites or mental categorization. That's why you won't see the in-depth analysis, at least not in public. People want to hate a terrorist or a monster. But not a complicated person.

Actually, we know what radical Islam is capable of. Complicated person is a euphemism for 'he didn't mean to do it' and 'it wasn't his fault'.

No. He was a homophobic, gay, Muslim man who lunched with drag queens and graduated from a police academy. He was complicated. We all know it was his fault. He was an evil murderer, who was also complicated.

[Anonymous]

My head is spinning.

[Anonymous]

He was a vile, contemptible, murdering piece of shit. I don't care which way he swung.