MCPS policy on not returning quizzes, tests and exams to students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not just end of year county assessments. Class tests, quizzes, mid term exams and in-class writing assignments. Its ridiculous.

I've seen it in elementary school for my younger child now too. DD received an ES in one writing section and an I in another writing section on the report card. I have never seen anything other than a P on anything that comes home. When I asked the teacher she said the in class work is different than what is sent home and I could come in to see it. The assignments were very different from anything we had seen. She said it was MCPS policy for graded work to be kept at the school until the grade cards were submitted. I had to make a special request for her to send the writing work home at the end of the year. She normally just throws them in the trash the next year. Oh and she never mentioned any of this at the parent teacher conferences, or back to school night earlier in the year. MCPS sucks.

THAT TEACHER sucks

There fixed that for you

How did you fix it? The teacher was just following MCPS policy, right? So why is it the teacher that sucks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not just end of year county assessments. Class tests, quizzes, mid term exams and in-class writing assignments. Its ridiculous.

I've seen it in elementary school for my younger child now too. DD received an ES in one writing section and an I in another writing section on the report card. I have never seen anything other than a P on anything that comes home. When I asked the teacher she said the in class work is different than what is sent home and I could come in to see it. The assignments were very different from anything we had seen. She said it was MCPS policy for graded work to be kept at the school until the grade cards were submitted. I had to make a special request for her to send the writing work home at the end of the year. She normally just throws them in the trash the next year. Oh and she never mentioned any of this at the parent teacher conferences, or back to school night earlier in the year. MCPS sucks.

THAT TEACHER sucks

There fixed that for you

How did you fix it? The teacher was just following MCPS policy, right? So why is it the teacher that sucks?

Wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not just end of year county assessments. Class tests, quizzes, mid term exams and in-class writing assignments. Its ridiculous.

I've seen it in elementary school for my younger child now too. DD received an ES in one writing section and an I in another writing section on the report card. I have never seen anything other than a P on anything that comes home. When I asked the teacher she said the in class work is different than what is sent home and I could come in to see it. The assignments were very different from anything we had seen. She said it was MCPS policy for graded work to be kept at the school until the grade cards were submitted. I had to make a special request for her to send the writing work home at the end of the year. She normally just throws them in the trash the next year. Oh and she never mentioned any of this at the parent teacher conferences, or back to school night earlier in the year. MCPS sucks.

THAT TEACHER sucks

There fixed that for you

How did you fix it? The teacher was just following MCPS policy, right? So why is it the teacher that sucks?

Wrong.

Ok, explain then. What part of it is NOT MCPS policy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This really isn't as hard as you all make it sound. Each test/quiz has a study guide. You can go on Edline and print them out. You can go on Edline and get your child's score. If your child didn't do well on a test or a quiz, then you can e-mail the teacher and ask what part of the subject matter your child missed. Then you pull out the study guide and work with your child on that material. This is a discussion that happens every year. The policy isn't going to change. You have to figure out how to work within the system or go elsewhere.

Great attitude! The policies are unchangeable, eh? I agree they are unlikely to change, particularly if we defend them in some weird Stockholm Syndrome way. But we know that it's possible to run the system differently, because it used to run differently.
If you want to narrow the education gap, one way to do it would be to make the information/feedback about an individual child more accessible to parents. Because I will do the things you're talking about. It's silly that I have to, but I will. But if I'm a single mother working 2 jobs, then I'd be a lot less likely to.
Now, for your "workaround" for the highly informed, motivated parent: What does the study guide include? Does it actually lay out the questions and how to answer them? No, right?
And, at what point can you do this? Do you have to wait until report cards to find out your kid didn't do well and then go back and teach the child what the teacher couldn't teach them the first time around? That seems like a big waste of time for everyone. So the kid goes through another few weeks not knowing what s/he's doing wrong until this happens?
Great plan!

PP is saying:

1. I have experience with it.
2. It's not a huge problem.
3. This is how to deal with it.

And your response is:

1. I don't have any experience with it.
2. But nonetheless I know it's a huge problem@
3. And your solution to the problem I have no experience with doesn't work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This really isn't as hard as you all make it sound. Each test/quiz has a study guide. You can go on Edline and print them out. You can go on Edline and get your child's score. If your child didn't do well on a test or a quiz, then you can e-mail the teacher and ask what part of the subject matter your child missed. Then you pull out the study guide and work with your child on that material. This is a discussion that happens every year. The policy isn't going to change. You have to figure out how to work within the system or go elsewhere.

Great attitude! The policies are unchangeable, eh? I agree they are unlikely to change, particularly if we defend them in some weird Stockholm Syndrome way. But we know that it's possible to run the system differently, because it used to run differently.
If you want to narrow the education gap, one way to do it would be to make the information/feedback about an individual child more accessible to parents. Because I will do the things you're talking about. It's silly that I have to, but I will. But if I'm a single mother working 2 jobs, then I'd be a lot less likely to.
Now, for your "workaround" for the highly informed, motivated parent: What does the study guide include? Does it actually lay out the questions and how to answer them? No, right?
And, at what point can you do this? Do you have to wait until report cards to find out your kid didn't do well and then go back and teach the child what the teacher couldn't teach them the first time around? That seems like a big waste of time for everyone. So the kid goes through another few weeks not knowing what s/he's doing wrong until this happens?
Great plan!

PP is saying:

1. I have experience with it.
2. It's not a huge problem.
3. This is how to deal with it.

And your response is:

1. I don't have any experience with it.
2. But nonetheless I know it's a huge problem@
3. And your solution to the problem I have no experience with doesn't work.

No, I'm saying that it sounds like a problem, and many people who *do* have experience with it are saying it's a problem. And the proposed solution seems to have some major flaws in it. Am I not allowed to use my brain to analyze a situation because I'm not already in it? That's ridiculous. I am quite capable of logical reasoning, thanks. You, however, seem to have some major problems with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you talking about class tests or standards assessment tests? Class tests policy is probably teacher specific. For standards, I think most are supposed to be mailed to the parents. I've certainly received several of DC's test scores in the mail.

Just scores? Not actual tests?

A lot of the assessment tests are taken online, and no you don't get them back. I don't ever remember getting my SAT tests back, only the test scores.

True, you don't get your SAT tests back, but that was the FIRST test I didn't get back in my entire education. So I don't think that proves that this is normal.

Exactly. Me too. The SAT doesn't give your the answers because it is a national test taken over and over again by many kids at different times of the year. MCPS uses that same policy because they are too lazy to change the test around every year.

This is not exactly true.

Some administrations of the SAT are returned to you if you register for that service. For example, this October is a test administration that will be released. Kids who take the Oct. exam can pay extra to have the test returned with their scores.

MCPS does not return exams because they are cheap -- it takes more money to develop multiple versions of exams with different questions so the administered exam can be released. Of course, MCPS should do this, and it would help the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you talking about class tests or standards assessment tests? Class tests policy is probably teacher specific. For standards, I think most are supposed to be mailed to the parents. I've certainly received several of DC's test scores in the mail.

Just scores? Not actual tests?

A lot of the assessment tests are taken online, and no you don't get them back. I don't ever remember getting my SAT tests back, only the test scores.

True, you don't get your SAT tests back, but that was the FIRST test I didn't get back in my entire education. So I don't think that proves that this is normal.

Exactly. Me too. The SAT doesn't give your the answers because it is a national test taken over and over again by many kids at different times of the year. MCPS uses that same policy because they are too lazy to change the test around every year.

This is not exactly true.

Some administrations of the SAT are returned to you if you register for that service. For example, this October is a test administration that will be released. Kids who take the Oct. exam can pay extra to have the test returned with their scores.

MCPS does not return exams because they are cheap -- it takes more money to develop multiple versions of exams with different questions so the administered exam can be released. Of course, MCPS should do this, and it would help the students.

Oh, but it's much more important that they all have Ipads in elementary school. Idiots.

[Anonymous]

FERPA, people. Know it and love it. FERPA is the Federal Education and Privacy Rights Act. Since it's a federal law, MCPS MUST comply with it. FERPA gives you and your child the right to inspect and review the student's educational record. An educational record includes basically anything that your student's name is attached to, which includes ALL tests, ALL graded assignments (I presume ungraded assignments end up in the student's possession), a copy of the grade or assessment entries made by the teacher under your child's name, etc.

You have a right to "review and inspect" these records, which means that not only do you have a right to see test answers, but where the test booklet includes your child's name, you must be allowed to see the test booklet. Even if the test booklet is separate and not identifiable to your child, you have a right to an explanation from the school about the meaning of the answer sheet/test score and this should include reviewing the test booklet with you. See Wrightslaw for more info on this subject -- http://www.fetaweb.com/04/ferpa.summary.htm

In MCPS, the issue of test security and FERPA compliance is handled by providing the parent in person access to the test instrument but asking the parent to sign a non-disclosure form prior to showing the test instrument.

I have been turned down by individual teachers frequently when asking to see my child's test booklet or a copy of the test questions and specific answers my child chose plus answer key.

BUT, I have NEVER been turned down when I have subsequently raised the request to the level of the principal, made it in writing, referenced FERPA and noted that I am willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

Your child can go in by themselves to see the test if you think they'll get anything out of it. Or you can make an appointment to see it with them (or without them).

Fight the power. MCPS's test policy is ridiculous, but as long as very few people actually request to see the exams, they will continue.

Can you imagine what would happen if dozens or hundreds of parents at one school consistently asked to see tests over the course of one year. I'd be willing to bet that the "no givebacks" test policy would change pretty quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you talking about class tests or standards assessment tests? Class tests policy is probably teacher specific. For standards, I think most are supposed to be mailed to the parents. I've certainly received several of DC's test scores in the mail.

Just scores? Not actual tests?

A lot of the assessment tests are taken online, and no you don't get them back. I don't ever remember getting my SAT tests back, only the test scores.

True, you don't get your SAT tests back, but that was the FIRST test I didn't get back in my entire education. So I don't think that proves that this is normal.

Exactly. Me too. The SAT doesn't give your the answers because it is a national test taken over and over again by many kids at different times of the year. MCPS uses that same policy because they are too lazy to change the test around every year.

This is not exactly true.

Some administrations of the SAT are returned to you if you register for that service. For example, this October is a test administration that will be released. Kids who take the Oct. exam can pay extra to have the test returned with their scores.

MCPS does not return exams because they are cheap -- it takes more money to develop multiple versions of exams with different questions so the administered exam can be released. Of course, MCPS should do this, and it would help the students.

Oh, but it's much more important that they all have Ipads in elementary school. Idiots.

good point. I only have a 1st grader and I wasn't aware of this policy. I am actually embarrassed that so many people here seem okay and even defend it. I always received all my tests home and had to show parents (I vividly remember my Dad sitting down with me to go over the questions I got wrong) then they would sign and return them. I don't understand how going over what an individual is doing wrong and fixing it, is not what everyone would want. What if my child gets an 80 on ever math test and the same type of questions she is getting wrong each test. Unless I contact the teacher, physically go in on my time and see every test to come to this conclusion, I would never know, correct? She would get by never knowing or understand that subject matter. I bet 99% of the parents don't even go in to see tests unless they fail. This is really sad. I can not believe this is policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FERPA, people. Know it and love it. FERPA is the Federal Education and Privacy Rights Act. Since it's a federal law, MCPS MUST comply with it. FERPA gives you and your child the right to inspect and review the student's educational record. An educational record includes basically anything that your student's name is attached to, which includes ALL tests, ALL graded assignments (I presume ungraded assignments end up in the student's possession), a copy of the grade or assessment entries made by the teacher under your child's name, etc.

You have a right to "review and inspect" these records, which means that not only do you have a right to see test answers, but where the test booklet includes your child's name, you must be allowed to see the test booklet. Even if the test booklet is separate and not identifiable to your child, you have a right to an explanation from the school about the meaning of the answer sheet/test score and this should include reviewing the test booklet with you. See Wrightslaw for more info on this subject -- http://www.fetaweb.com/04/ferpa.summary.htm

In MCPS, the issue of test security and FERPA compliance is handled by providing the parent in person access to the test instrument but asking the parent to sign a non-disclosure form prior to showing the test instrument.

I have been turned down by individual teachers frequently when asking to see my child's test booklet or a copy of the test questions and specific answers my child chose plus answer key.

BUT, I have NEVER been turned down when I have subsequently raised the request to the level of the principal, made it in writing, referenced FERPA and noted that I am willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

Your child can go in by themselves to see the test if you think they'll get anything out of it. Or you can make an appointment to see it with them (or without them).

Fight the power. MCPS's test policy is ridiculous, but as long as very few people actually request to see the exams, they will continue.

Can you imagine what would happen if dozens or hundreds of parents at one school consistently asked to see tests over the course of one year. I'd be willing to bet that the "no givebacks" test policy would change pretty quickly.

You're right. All it would take is for people to do what they're telling us we have to do -- ask to see every piece of graded work. People don't do it, because (1) we don't want to tick off the teacher, and (2) we don't have time. But if we did it, suddenly MCPS would realize that this is an unsustainable way to do it, since teacher couldn't possibly have time for it.
It would take much less time for them to just give us the kid's work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP is saying (*about MCPS not returning tests home):

1. I have experience with it.
2. It's not a huge problem.
3. This is how to deal with it.

And my response is

1. I have experience with it.
2. I find it to be a major (perhaps not huge) problem
3. The proposed "solution" is a poor substitute for simply returning the test home. I want to see the test while my child still remembers taking it. I want to see the specific question and my child's answer. Is the answer wrong because he misunderstood the question, or because he doesn't understand the concept, or because he made a careless mistake? (Or perhaps the answer is correct but the teacher did not grade it correctly.) My personal experience is that education proceeds by making mistakes, and then understanding *why* it was a mistake.

I would feel a lot better if MCPS would explain why they won't return the test home. (Again, not returning the test seems to be a standard MCPS policy for middle school, but teachers seem to have more leeway in elementary school. I have two children in middle school and one in elementary.) Right now, it seems totally arbitrary to me, like a policy that anybody who wears green on the day of the test will get an F. Do they want to keep the test to make it harder for parent's to question the final grade? Are they worried that copies of the test would be posted online to help kids cheat the following year? These seem like weak justifications but at least the the decision wouldn't be completely arbitrary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

PP is saying (*about MCPS not returning tests home):

1. I have experience with it.
2. It's not a huge problem.
3. This is how to deal with it.

And my response is

1. I have experience with it.
2. I find it to be a major (perhaps not huge) problem
3. The proposed "solution" is a poor substitute for simply returning the test home. I want to see the test while my child still remembers taking it. I want to see the specific question and my child's answer. Is the answer wrong because he misunderstood the question, or because he doesn't understand the concept, or because he made a careless mistake? (Or perhaps the answer is correct but the teacher did not grade it correctly.) My personal experience is that education proceeds by making mistakes, and then understanding *why* it was a mistake.

I would feel a lot better if MCPS would explain why they won't return the test home. (Again, not returning the test seems to be a standard MCPS policy for middle school, but teachers seem to have more leeway in elementary school. I have two children in middle school and one in elementary.) Right now, it seems totally arbitrary to me, like a policy that anybody who wears green on the day of the test will get an F. Do they want to keep the test to make it harder for parent's to question the final grade? Are they worried that copies of the test would be posted online to help kids cheat the following year? These seem like weak justifications but at least the the decision wouldn't be completely arbitrary.

I would like to point out that copies of prior year's tests posted online would actually help kids study by giving them practice. It just costs more money for MCPS to develop a deep enough test question pool to be able to do this in a way that allowed them to create an entirely new test each year.

Again, MCPS is just cheap and lazy. They are doing what is easy for them, not what is best for the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you talking about class tests or standards assessment tests? Class tests policy is probably teacher specific. For standards, I think most are supposed to be mailed to the parents. I've certainly received several of DC's test scores in the mail.

Just scores? Not actual tests?

A lot of the assessment tests are taken online, and no you don't get them back. I don't ever remember getting my SAT tests back, only the test scores.

True, you don't get your SAT tests back, but that was the FIRST test I didn't get back in my entire education. So I don't think that proves that this is normal.

That's bizarre.

As both a public and private school student, I took standardized tests every year from about 3rd grade. I never saw the tests again. Where did you go to school?

MCPS has gone to common assessments across the county. So, every student in Algebra 2 takes the same unit test. That way they can assure that students are getting the same material, and proving mastery at the same level. Obviously, having put a lot of effort into developing tests, they want them to be secure.

Tests that are created by the teacher are usually returned, in my experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you talking about class tests or standards assessment tests? Class tests policy is probably teacher specific. For standards, I think most are supposed to be mailed to the parents. I've certainly received several of DC's test scores in the mail.

Just scores? Not actual tests?

A lot of the assessment tests are taken online, and no you don't get them back. I don't ever remember getting my SAT tests back, only the test scores.

True, you don't get your SAT tests back, but that was the FIRST test I didn't get back in my entire education. So I don't think that proves that this is normal.

That's bizarre.

As both a public and private school student, I took standardized tests every year from about 3rd grade. I never saw the tests again. Where did you go to school?

MCPS has gone to common assessments across the county. So, every student in Algebra 2 takes the same unit test. That way they can assure that students are getting the same material, and proving mastery at the same level. Obviously, having put a lot of effort into developing tests, they want them to be secure.

Tests that are created by the teacher are usually returned, in my experience.

As a public and private school student, I didn't take standardized tests every year. I took the SAT, the SSAT, some kind of assessment to get into my private HS, and an IQ test to get into a gifted program. Other than that, it was normal tests, which were marked up and graded and sent home. I went to public schools in MD, NM, VA, and private schools in MD.
Look, if you want to tell me that MCPS will give us all tests except an annual assessment that doesn't affect the kid's grade, then I can be happy with that. But we both know that's not what's happening here. Kids are being deprived the extremely valuable experience of being able to learn from their own mistakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you talking about class tests or standards assessment tests? Class tests policy is probably teacher specific. For standards, I think most are supposed to be mailed to the parents. I've certainly received several of DC's test scores in the mail.

Just scores? Not actual tests?

A lot of the assessment tests are taken online, and no you don't get them back. I don't ever remember getting my SAT tests back, only the test scores.

True, you don't get your SAT tests back, but that was the FIRST test I didn't get back in my entire education. So I don't think that proves that this is normal.

That's bizarre.

As both a public and private school student, I took standardized tests every year from about 3rd grade. I never saw the tests again. Where did you go to school?

MCPS has gone to common assessments across the county. So, every student in Algebra 2 takes the same unit test. That way they can assure that students are getting the same material, and proving mastery at the same level. Obviously, having put a lot of effort into developing tests, they want them to be secure.

Tests that are created by the teacher are usually returned, in my experience.

As a public and private school student, I didn't take standardized tests every year. I took the SAT, the SSAT, some kind of assessment to get into my private HS, and an IQ test to get into a gifted program. Other than that, it was normal tests, which were marked up and graded and sent home. I went to public schools in MD, NM, VA, and private schools in MD.
Look, if you want to tell me that MCPS will give us all tests except an annual assessment that doesn't affect the kid's grade, then I can be happy with that. But we both know that's not what's happening here. Kids are being deprived the extremely valuable experience of being able to learn from their own mistakes.

PP again -- you realize, of course, that they can do common assessments across the county and still send tests home. It just means creating a new test each year. Not that hard.