Are middle schools and high schools impacted by 2.0?

[Anonymous]

This is report is from some community group back from 2002. I don't agree with the recommendations to shut down GT centers or advanced instruction to address the issue. I do think the observations and feelings of those that believe GT centers exclude them are very real and aligned with the philosophies that are now guiding MCPS decisions.

http://www.mcef.org/Position%20Paper%20PDF.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is report is from some community group back from 2002. I don't agree with the recommendations to shut down GT centers or advanced instruction to address the issue. I do think the observations and feelings of those that believe GT centers exclude them are very real and aligned with the philosophies that are now guiding MCPS decisions.

http://www.mcef.org/Position%20Paper%20PDF.pdf

I don't see any recommendations to shut down the HGCs or to shut down advanced instruction. The report is talking about GT classes WITHIN the schools. Also, it says that tracking leads to inequitable access to a good education, especially among poor and minority children. There's no legitimate arguing with this. It's a fact.

In any case, I am not sure how a report from a community group in 2002 is relevant to whether or not Starr wants to abolish test-in magnet programs in 2014. Not to mention that even if Starr did want to abolish test-in magnet programs, he couldn't do it. It's politically impossible. It won't happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Shutting down the centers would also support social emotional learning. Its very harmful to minority or lower performing children to see children who look different from them always walking off to the gifted classes. It doesn't matter that everyone had equal opportunity to take the test and admittance was by score. To a kid its noticeable that the white and asian kids go to one set of classes and they go to another one in their own school. No its not fair to the white and asian kids but they have other advantages in life if they are already smart enough to get into a center or magnet.

This is the kind of zero-sum thinking many parents try to discourage in their children. It is ugly.

Yes, it is ugly. But the ugliness is on the part of the PP, for implying that all children have an equal opportunity to get into the HGC, it's just that the black and Hispanic kids are dumber, and that Starr's goal is to make black and Hispanic kids feel better about themselves by disadvantaging white and Asian kids.

Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. All children have the same opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, it is ugly. But the ugliness is on the part of the PP, for implying that all children have an equal opportunity to get into the HGC, it's just that the black and Hispanic kids are dumber, and that Starr's goal is to make black and Hispanic kids feel better about themselves by disadvantaging white and Asian kids.

Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. All children have the same opportunity.

Yes, all children have the same opportunity. And the law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets, and stealing bread.

[Anonymous]

The 2002 paper was responding to when GT was done in-home school. There was or still is an active campaign by MCEF to end gifted labeling and gifted centers.

Its very naive to pretend that the perspective to end GT centers and magnets because they predominantly only serve one segment of the population that is already privileged isn't strong within Montgomery County.

I wouldn't believe that anything is impossible. No one who moved Montgomery for the strong math curriculum ever expected MCPS to gut it as quickly as they did with 2.0. Boundary changes and busing is next to impossible because it involves a host of other parties from transportation to business developers. GT centers? Stroke of pen and they're gone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The 2002 paper was responding to when GT was done in-home school. There was or still is an active campaign by MCEF to end gifted labeling and gifted centers.

Its very naive to pretend that the perspective to end GT centers and magnets because they predominantly only serve one segment of the population that is already privileged isn't strong within Montgomery County.

I wouldn't believe that anything is impossible. No one who moved Montgomery for the strong math curriculum ever expected MCPS to gut it as quickly as they did with 2.0. Boundary changes and busing is next to impossible because it involves a host of other parties from transportation to business developers. GT centers? Stroke of pen and they're gone.

Except that nobody will ever do that stroke of a pen, because they know that it would be followed by deafening roars of outrage from many of the most affluent, entitled parents in Montgomery County (and the competition for that category in Montgomery County is stiff). Raising fears that Starr will abolish the HGCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11! is useful if your goal is to rally the affluent parents. It's not so useful if your goal is to actually improve education in MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well Starr does want to do a study on whether the GT centers and magnets are necessary. Its no secret that he hates these programs and would love to shut them down.

He does? Where did you learn this? Can you provide a link to the reference, please?

There is a line item on the approved current budget for $250K to cover a consultant to look at ALL magnet programs, including GT, immersion, etc.

To look at what about them? What is the purpose of the consultant's study?

This is not disclosed in the budget. We all know Starr's attitude towards special programs, but he would face a tough fight if he tried to eliminate them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The 2002 paper was responding to when GT was done in-home school. There was or still is an active campaign by MCEF to end gifted labeling and gifted centers.

Its very naive to pretend that the perspective to end GT centers and magnets because they predominantly only serve one segment of the population that is already privileged isn't strong within Montgomery County.

I wouldn't believe that anything is impossible. No one who moved Montgomery for the strong math curriculum ever expected MCPS to gut it as quickly as they did with 2.0. Boundary changes and busing is next to impossible because it involves a host of other parties from transportation to business developers. GT centers? Stroke of pen and they're gone.

Except that nobody will ever do that stroke of a pen, because they know that it would be followed by deafening roars of outrage from many of the most affluent, entitled parents in Montgomery County (and the competition for that category in Montgomery County is stiff). Raising fears that Starr will abolish the HGCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11! is useful if your goal is to rally the affluent parents. It's not so useful if your goal is to actually improve education in MCPS.

It's not the affluent who would lead the charge - they could send their kids to private schools. It is middle class families who prize education who would be the most upset. Most of the families we know in HGCs and magnet are middle class. They don't have fancy cars or fancy houses. Their kids are bright and hard working and yes they generally have parents who value education and have spent a lot of time with their children trying to provide them with an enriching environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The 2002 paper was responding to when GT was done in-home school. There was or still is an active campaign by MCEF to end gifted labeling and gifted centers.

Its very naive to pretend that the perspective to end GT centers and magnets because they predominantly only serve one segment of the population that is already privileged isn't strong within Montgomery County.

I wouldn't believe that anything is impossible. No one who moved Montgomery for the strong math curriculum ever expected MCPS to gut it as quickly as they did with 2.0. Boundary changes and busing is next to impossible because it involves a host of other parties from transportation to business developers. GT centers? Stroke of pen and they're gone.

Except that nobody will ever do that stroke of a pen, because they know that it would be followed by deafening roars of outrage from many of the most affluent, entitled parents in Montgomery County (and the competition for that category in Montgomery County is stiff). Raising fears that Starr will abolish the HGCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11! is useful if your goal is to rally the affluent parents. It's not so useful if your goal is to actually improve education in MCPS.

It's not the affluent who would lead the charge - they could send their kids to private schools. It is middle class families who prize education who would be the most upset. Most of the families we know in HGCs and magnet are middle class. They don't have fancy cars or fancy houses. Their kids are bright and hard working and yes they generally have parents who value education and have spent a lot of time with their children trying to provide them with an enriching environment.

OK, it wouldn't be the super-affluent. It would be the affluent. (Because if you are middle-class in Montgomery County, you are affluent.) And so therefore...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The 2002 paper was responding to when GT was done in-home school. There was or still is an active campaign by MCEF to end gifted labeling and gifted centers.

Its very naive to pretend that the perspective to end GT centers and magnets because they predominantly only serve one segment of the population that is already privileged isn't strong within Montgomery County.

I wouldn't believe that anything is impossible. No one who moved Montgomery for the strong math curriculum ever expected MCPS to gut it as quickly as they did with 2.0. Boundary changes and busing is next to impossible because it involves a host of other parties from transportation to business developers. GT centers? Stroke of pen and they're gone.

Except that nobody will ever do that stroke of a pen, because they know that it would be followed by deafening roars of outrage from many of the most affluent, entitled parents in Montgomery County (and the competition for that category in Montgomery County is stiff). Raising fears that Starr will abolish the HGCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11! is useful if your goal is to rally the affluent parents. It's not so useful if your goal is to actually improve education in MCPS.

I really don't understand how getting rid of HGCs would improve the education in MCPS. It is taking out a program that offers a more rigorous curriculum. How does eliminating HGCs exactly help improve the education overall? By steering the funds elsewhere? Well, if that is the case, then shouldn't we get rid of IEP programs, too, for the wealthy because they can surely afford private instruction.

There has been a lot of evidence that suggests increasing spending for a lower SES child doesn't improves academics. Title 1 schools receive extra funding, smaller class sizes. I'm not arguing against it. I think it's good they have it. But how much of an increase in scores has it generated?

Also, as another PP noted, the only ones to really suffer are those from middle class families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Shutting down the centers would also support social emotional learning. Its very harmful to minority or lower performing children to see children who look different from them always walking off to the gifted classes. It doesn't matter that everyone had equal opportunity to take the test and admittance was by score. To a kid its noticeable that the white and asian kids go to one set of classes and they go to another one in their own school. No its not fair to the white and asian kids but they have other advantages in life if they are already smart enough to get into a center or magnet.

This is the kind of zero-sum thinking many parents try to discourage in their children. It is ugly.

Yes, it is ugly. But the ugliness is on the part of the PP, for implying that all children have an equal opportunity to get into the HGC, it's just that the black and Hispanic kids are dumber, and that Starr's goal is to make black and Hispanic kids feel better about themselves by disadvantaging white and Asian kids.

Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. All children have the same opportunity.

Come on people. All kids are equal and the same! That's why they all get Ps and take the same narrow band of subjects now. Everybody is the same, I mean equal. MCPS has redefined equal to main same. Duh. Just all pass the same low bar and, viola, you are the same!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No. The elementary school grading system is "standards-based grading". Fairfax County Public Schools also uses standards-based grading for elementary-school report cards. Virginia has not adopted the Common Core standards

Lets not try to pretend that Fairfax has done what MCPS has done. People inside MCPS are VERY sensitive that the surrounding school systems in Maryland and Virginia are performing better and don't have the disaster on their hands that MCPS does with 2.0. Its so hard to pretend your the best when everyone around you is better.

MCPS has interpreted standards based grading to mean that anything between 70-100% is a P. ES is not defined and arbitrary. I and N are equally unclear. In addition, MCPS has used common core to drop the rigor and lower the standards across the board. This is directly related to MCPS's decision to focus solely on PARRC. If something isn't on PARRC there is absolutely no value in ever teaching or allowing children to pursue it. For MCPS common core is a ceiling not a baseline which is the fundamental problem.

Even within MCPS there is recognition that the grading system can no longer be used to fairly assess performance when admitting kids to HGC, magnets, or special programs. If MCPS can't rely on its own system how on earth could any other school system ever use grades given by MCPS for any type of admittance? It puts MCPS students at a disadvantage where SAT and AP scores are everything.

So FCPS hasn't adopted "standards-based grading"? It sure looks like they have, to me.

http://www.fcps.edu/SunriseValleyES/Files%20to%20Link/Documents/Parent%20meeting%20Sunrise%20Valley.pdf

I'm also a bit confused about how grades received in K-5 could put MCPS students at a disadvantage with SAT and AP scores.

If a teacher is appointing Ps to 80%+ of a class, like many are, there is no differentiation nor motivation to do better. Fairfax is not doing that, montgomery county is essentially doing pass fail lazy "grading". Utter rubbish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have looked at the MCPS website re 2.0. They don't mention anything about how they plan to incorporate common core standards at the higher grade levels--but I know they are planning to do so. It's a real shame. Parents need to wake up and make a fuss like they did in NY--if we don't, they'll mess up middle school and high school the way they have for elementary school! These standards are a joke and so is the new technology plan.

Which Common Core standards do you think are a joke, and why do you think so?

Obama put forth common core because he wanted every state to have the same standards. Then he bribed states with money the first couple years if they signed up.
If Maryland had very high state standards before and Mississippi had very low standards, now they don't. They have the same mediocre Obama education dept standards now. (Which costs millions to reinvent of course).
Each state that signed up for the money, err, standards, has come up with its implementation plan and teaching curriculum. THIS is what MoCo and Maryland really F'd up. The implementation.
Plus it lowered its standards in several mcps schools. But nevermind that, it needs to cater more to the ESOL and poverty kids. Who cares about the middle class, they can just keep paying their ever-rising porosity taxes for more ESOL teachers, farm lunches, and teachers aides for disruptive classes. They can teach their kid themselves or let them wallow in repetition, proficiency, experimental teaching methods, and botched instruction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well this is perfect because they just dumbed-down the SAT so it should dovetail nicely.

They dumbed down the SAT because of common core; it is not a random happening whatsoever.

While Starr is laser-focused on easy ways to close the achievement gap, studious well-behaved kids abroad and in private schools will be ripping the cover off the ball, leaving the products of U.S. public schools in the dust.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The 2002 paper was responding to when GT was done in-home school. There was or still is an active campaign by MCEF to end gifted labeling and gifted centers.

Its very naive to pretend that the perspective to end GT centers and magnets because they predominantly only serve one segment of the population that is already privileged isn't strong within Montgomery County.

I wouldn't believe that anything is impossible. No one who moved Montgomery for the strong math curriculum ever expected MCPS to gut it as quickly as they did with 2.0. Boundary changes and busing is next to impossible because it involves a host of other parties from transportation to business developers. GT centers? Stroke of pen and they're gone.

Except that nobody will ever do that stroke of a pen, because they know that it would be followed by deafening roars of outrage from many of the most affluent, entitled parents in Montgomery County (and the competition for that category in Montgomery County is stiff). Raising fears that Starr will abolish the HGCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11! is useful if your goal is to rally the affluent parents. It's not so useful if your goal is to actually improve education in MCPS.

It's not the affluent who would lead the charge - they could send their kids to private schools. It is middle class families who prize education who would be the most upset. Most of the families we know in HGCs and magnet are middle class. They don't have fancy cars or fancy houses. Their kids are bright and hard working and yes they generally have parents who value education and have spent a lot of time with their children trying to provide them with an enriching environment.

OK, it wouldn't be the super-affluent. It would be the affluent. (Because if you are middle-class in Montgomery County, you are affluent.) And so therefore...?

And so therefore..... we are not talking about a tiny "elite" group of families sending their kids to these programs. These are (in my experience) largely solidly middle class families. Yes you need more income to have a middle class lifestyle but they are not living high on the hog.