Documentary: American Promise

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This show along with a number of books such a Judith Warner's Perfect Madness and the more recent All Joy, No Fun by Jennifer Senior seem consciously or not to be pushing against parents being so vested in our children's future. I have thought lot about this as I am dealing with my kid failing Algebra. At one level I want her to own the changes, turn in the homework dammit, study, put the ipod down. But as I push and push I realize she does not own the outcome. I do think our children will have to figure out how to redefine the parenting relationship, if only to have a way of rebelling against us.

I took away the opposite message, the parents did too little to late for their kids to keep up in a competitive environment. When Idris' father finally realized he needed academic help (after being offended when he was offered free tutoring the year before after school) he made a chart and realized his son was spending a lot of time playing playstation. Only then did he organize his schedule. If they realized Idris had trouble being organized why didn't they make sure all of his work was printed and put in his backpack the night before. If he was struggling getting C's perhaps they shouldn't have let him play Varsity basketball as a ninth grader. He might have had more time and earlier games playing JV.

His parents went to elite colleges. How were they able to do it if they didn't go to a school like Dalton? I am thinking maybe it is like the immigrants who bust their ass working and becoming successful. Then the later generations who have assimilated and are comfortable don't work as hard as their parents did. The self motivated hunger and drive is gone.

Maybe they didn't have their parents stressing them out like the Brewsters did coupled with a competitive environment like Dalton, so they felt free to explore and grow academically. Also, it was a totally different time. I went to HS in the 80's and it was nowhere near as competitive and difficult as it is now.

Well, I'm a pp who is Asian who had Asian immigrant parents. My parents did not let up on the pressure but did not micromanage either. They were too busy working and their English was not good enough to help. I attended elite private schools and went to an Ivy. I also went to school during the 80ties and it certainly as competitive as it is now - it probably depends on where you went to school. Elite private schools are probably the epitome of pressure cookers and have always been this way.

I understand perfectly where the Brewsters are coming from. While I felt bad for Idris - that scene where his mother helped write his report, oy!- most parents want their children to do at least as well as themselves and hopefully better.

[Anonymous]

I enjoyed the film very much with lots of conflicting thoughts. I didn't think the question of the film - were AA boys treated differently than their peers at independent schools (or at least at Dalton) - was answered as a 'yes.' Even during the dinner party one of the guests said that the white kids were in the same situation. Many kids have executive functioning issues that interfere with their learning and neither of these boys was hyperactive, just unfocused. The school clearly liked both boys, they were great kids. The amount of time Idris's parents put into his schoolwork seemed staggering. I have 2 high school kids and I barely see their work (and they both have inattentive ADHD). I did relate to Michele's lament about her son's lack of drive, but that is something that can't be taught. He may discover it later. I thought he handled the whole college situation far better than his parents who acted so disappointed that he 'only' got into Occidental - a fine school. Let's also hope this helps dispels the common notion that Stanford and other schools in it's rank routinely admit URM candidates with lesser credentials. Despite being an URM with a legacy father, Idris just didn't have the credentials for the school.

[Anonymous]

"Despite being an URM with a legacy father, Idris just didn't have the credentials for the school." It was oddly sad, Idris making comments during his Stanford visit as though he had a chance, maybe he was just pretending because the camera was rolling. I wonder if Dad was the cameraman for this particular scene.

I really think his parents assumed being a URM would carry more weight in college admissions than it did. Idris' GPA and board scores must have been pretty average if he was wait listed at Trinity. I can't remember whether or not there was a college admissions counselor scene for the Brewster family.

[Anonymous]

I like Seun's family, except for Miles, better than Idris'. Seun's family seem more down to earth and not as pushy nor unlikeable. That one point where Idris is talking about liking cardigans, asking Seun if he knows what it is, and saying Seun dresses differently sounds like a snobby but polite insults. I think Idris will have some issues stemming from his childhood. I want to know how the other children in both families were or are being raised and how they turned out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I enjoyed the film very much with lots of conflicting thoughts. I didn't think the question of the film - were AA boys treated differently than their peers at independent schools (or at least at Dalton) - was answered as a 'yes.' Even during the dinner party one of the guests said that the white kids were in the same situation. Many kids have executive functioning issues that interfere with their learning and neither of these boys was hyperactive, just unfocused. The school clearly liked both boys, they were great kids. The amount of time Idris's parents put into his schoolwork seemed staggering. I have 2 high school kids and I barely see their work (and they both have inattentive ADHD). I did relate to Michele's lament about her son's lack of drive, but that is something that can't be taught. He may discover it later. I thought he handled the whole college situation far better than his parents who acted so disappointed that he 'only' got into Occidental - a fine school. Let's also hope this helps dispels the common notion that Stanford and other schools in it's rank routinely admit URM candidates with lesser credentials. Despite being an URM with a legacy father, Idris just didn't have the credentials for the school.

I agree with everything you wrote. There were indeed a lot of takeaways from this movie but you touched on one previously overlooked.

I suspect his family thought that being an URM, legacy and Dalton graduate combined would work in his favor. I can understand them having him give it a whirl without having too much faith in its outcome, but they clearly thought he had a good shot--hence the severe disappointment at his rejection.

I can't believe his father said he was "pained" by the outcomes given Idris' struggle just to get through HS. I would've been thrilled with his first set of acceptances (Morehouse, U of Vermont and Occidental) but they were dismissed outright by the family of this struggling, medicated child with ADHD. I would've been grateful, paid a deposit at one of the schools then taken a 'wait and see' approach with the reaches.

If only those parents had raised the wonderful child they had instead of the one they wished they had. Their approach to their less than perfect but wonderful child made his childhood much more stressful than it needed to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Despite being an URM with a legacy father, Idris just didn't have the credentials for the school." It was oddly sad, Idris making comments during his Stanford visit as though he had a chance, maybe he was just pretending because the camera was rolling. I wonder if Dad was the cameraman for this particular scene.

I really think his parents assumed being a URM would carry more weight in college admissions than it did. Idris' GPA and board scores must have been pretty average if he was wait listed at Trinity. I can't remember whether or not there was a college admissions counselor scene for the Brewster family.

I don't recall seeing a college admissions counselor in the movie, but with those helicopter parents whose goal from the moment Idris was born was to get him into an Ivy, I'm certain there was one. I'm almost certain Dalton has one. I'm also willing to bet the counselor advised against Stanford and the Ivies but those parents had a habit of ignoring advise that did not fit their plan and likely ignored it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like Seun's family, except for Miles, better than Idris'. Seun's family seem more down to earth and not as pushy nor unlikeable. That one point where Idris is talking about liking cardigans, asking Seun if he knows what it is, and saying Seun dresses differently sounds like a snobby but polite insults. I think Idris will have some issues stemming from his childhood. I want to know how the other children in both families were or are being raised and how they turned out.

Who's Miles again? (I don't remember anyone in Seun's family being unlikeable. Although I cringed at the father being a man in a household where his wife had to work 2 jobs while undergoing chemo.)

And I wonder how much of Seun and Idris' split was influenced by the Brewsters deciding that Idris should no longer associate (too much) with Seun who was no longer at Dalton but at a predominately black (and less elite) school. I'm certain a lot of it was a natural thing that happens with most kids, but those Brewsters make you wonder.

I didn't see the cardigan comment as an insult, but yes I'm also curious about the other kids in the family.

And I wonder if/when the family will realize this documentary is much more about their (overbearing) parenting style than it is about AA boys in private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Despite being an URM with a legacy father, Idris just didn't have the credentials for the school." It was oddly sad, Idris making comments during his Stanford visit as though he had a chance, maybe he was just pretending because the camera was rolling. I wonder if Dad was the cameraman for this particular scene.

I really think his parents assumed being a URM would carry more weight in college admissions than it did. Idris' GPA and board scores must have been pretty average if he was wait listed at Trinity. I can't remember whether or not there was a college admissions counselor scene for the Brewster family.

Sigh. Those parents put that in his head. Remember the scene at the kitchen table before they went on the college visits. And the parents were telling him what to say if given the chance to talk to someone in admissions ("tradition of academic excellence" per dad)? Mom told him that he might encounter someone with the ability to make a decision in his favor...So um yeah. Clearly this was a kid who could not think for himself. He simply did what his parents told him to. Between having every hour of his life scheduled and his parents telling him what to say, it's no wonder he just believed what he was told and recited the script he was given.

You could see the parents strip every ounce of self-esteem from this poor kid. For someone from his background (elite school, two Ivy educated parents, real life Huxtables with a Dr. father and attorney mother), he had absolutely no self-esteem and very little personality. He was, however, highly intelligent and self-aware.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Seun's family, except for Miles, better than Idris'. Seun's family seem more down to earth and not as pushy nor unlikeable. That one point where Idris is talking about liking cardigans, asking Seun if he knows what it is, and saying Seun dresses differently sounds like a snobby but polite insults. I think Idris will have some issues stemming from his childhood. I want to know how the other children in both families were or are being raised and how they turned out.

Who's Miles again? (I don't remember anyone in Seun's family being unlikeable. Although I cringed at the father being a man in a household where his wife had to work 2 jobs while undergoing chemo.)

And I wonder how much of Seun and Idris' split was influenced by the Brewsters deciding that Idris should no longer associate (too much) with Seun who was no longer at Dalton but at a predominately black (and less elite) school. I'm certain a lot of it was a natural thing that happens with most kids, but those Brewsters make you wonder.

I didn't see the cardigan comment as an insult, but yes I'm also curious about the other kids in the family.

And I wonder if/when the family will realize this documentary is much more about their (overbearing) parenting style than it is about AA boys in private schools.

Sorry if it was confusing. Miles is Idris' younger brother. He was the only really likeable one in that family.

[Anonymous]

Wanted to add that Idris' parents always seemed to think there was a hidden agenda going on at Dalton. Much to Idris' detriment. The other black Dalton parents they came to their house didn't seem so aggressive. Maybe that's why Idris' parents went to elite colleges. Lots of drive and aggressive. Idris seems more like a sensitive, caring child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Seun's family, except for Miles, better than Idris'. Seun's family seem more down to earth and not as pushy nor unlikeable. That one point where Idris is talking about liking cardigans, asking Seun if he knows what it is, and saying Seun dresses differently sounds like a snobby but polite insults. I think Idris will have some issues stemming from his childhood. I want to know how the other children in both families were or are being raised and how they turned out.

Who's Miles again? (I don't remember anyone in Seun's family being unlikeable. Although I cringed at the father being a man in a household where his wife had to work 2 jobs while undergoing chemo.)

And I wonder how much of Seun and Idris' split was influenced by the Brewsters deciding that Idris should no longer associate (too much) with Seun who was no longer at Dalton but at a predominately black (and less elite) school. I'm certain a lot of it was a natural thing that happens with most kids, but those Brewsters make you wonder.

I didn't see the cardigan comment as an insult, but yes I'm also curious about the other kids in the family.

And I wonder if/when the family will realize this documentary is much more about their (overbearing) parenting style than it is about AA boys in private schools.

Sorry if it was confusing. Miles is Idris' younger brother. He was the only really likeable one in that family.

YES! And Miles was/is a CUTIE PIE!

I have a few questions about the movie:

1. Why do you guys think Idris' family decided in HS to have him tested for ADHD and medicated? The topic came up earlier in his life but the father dismissed it, saying that as a psychiatrist he did not see it in his son. Why do you think he changed his mind?

2. Was there a change in location towards the end? When Idris and his mother drove outside the city, it seemed they were in a different house. It's too bad that wasn't explained. (Or were they at home but I missed something.) Like, did they go to a vacation home? Was it necessary for them to go to a different location to get the college admissions results? Was the family living separately? I mean, who knows?

[Anonymous]

What happened to Seun's younger brother who died?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wanted to add that Idris' parents always seemed to think there was a hidden agenda going on at Dalton. Much to Idris' detriment. The other black Dalton parents they came to their house didn't seem so aggressive. Maybe that's why Idris' parents went to elite colleges. Lots of drive and aggressive. Idris seems more like a sensitive, caring child.

Yes, it was to his detriment. The minute they dismissed the school's concerns about his behavior with "They don't know him. Not my child." I knew it was all over for him unless they got their acts together.

The Brewsters were a people with an agenda for sure. And they were going to make everything fit into it.

Idris' had to fit into the agenda THEY had for HIS life. And race had to fit into the agenda they had for the movie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Seun's family, except for Miles, better than Idris'. Seun's family seem more down to earth and not as pushy nor unlikeable. That one point where Idris is talking about liking cardigans, asking Seun if he knows what it is, and saying Seun dresses differently sounds like a snobby but polite insults. I think Idris will have some issues stemming from his childhood. I want to know how the other children in both families were or are being raised and how they turned out.

Who's Miles again? (I don't remember anyone in Seun's family being unlikeable. Although I cringed at the father being a man in a household where his wife had to work 2 jobs while undergoing chemo.)

And I wonder how much of Seun and Idris' split was influenced by the Brewsters deciding that Idris should no longer associate (too much) with Seun who was no longer at Dalton but at a predominately black (and less elite) school. I'm certain a lot of it was a natural thing that happens with most kids, but those Brewsters make you wonder.

I didn't see the cardigan comment as an insult, but yes I'm also curious about the other kids in the family.

And I wonder if/when the family will realize this documentary is much more about their (overbearing) parenting style than it is about AA boys in private schools.

Sorry if it was confusing. Miles is Idris' younger brother. He was the only really likeable one in that family.

YES! And Miles was/is a CUTIE PIE!

I have a few questions about the movie:

1. Why do you guys think Idris' family decided in HS to have him tested for ADHD and medicated? The topic came up earlier in his life but the father dismissed it, saying that as a psychiatrist he did not see it in his son. Why do you think he changed his mind?

2. Was there a change in location towards the end? When Idris and his mother drove outside the city, it seemed they were in a different house. It's too bad that wasn't explained. (Or were they at home but I missed something.) Like, did they go to a vacation home? Was it necessary for them to go to a different location to get the college admissions results? Was the family living separately? I mean, who knows?

I'm wondering if there is more of a stigma with mental health issues among AAs. Or maybe the father dismissed it because he felt it would somehow seem like Idris wasn't as good as the other students. Or maybe they found out that there were other white kids with similar issues taking medicine. They seemed more receptive when they would find out that white students were facing similar issues like the tutoring. In the end, they had to face reality and get Idris help or he would risk getting kicked out of school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:



2. Was there a change in location towards the end? When Idris and his mother drove outside the city, it seemed they were in a different house. It's too bad that wasn't explained. (Or were they at home but I missed something.) Like, did they go to a vacation home? Was it necessary for them to go to a different location to get the college admissions results? Was the family living separately? I mean, who knows?

They were at their country house in Woodstock, NY.