Reply to Steubenville Rape Case: What You Haven't Heard-What lessons do you take from this re:your own boys?

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Reply to "Steubenville Rape Case: What You Haven't Heard-What lessons do you take from this re:your own boys?"

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I recently had a conversation with my 15yo about rape and consent, based on this letter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/ask-amy-teen-victim-looks-for-answers/2013/02/15/e6791910-7793-11e2-8f84-3e4b513b1a13_story.html

I read him the letter and asked him if he thought it was rape and he said yes. We then talked about confusing signals, how any confusion means no, and how anyone influenced by drugs/alcohol is not capable of saying yes. [b]We also talked about how it is not just a question of a girl not saying "no," that she must fully and clearly say YES.  Anything less = back off.[/b]
It came up again last night for some reason, and we talked about how if you are in a situation where, like this girl, you *cannot* speak up and be clear, and are uncomfortable doing so, well then you should not be intimate with that person to begin with - that discomfort like that is a signal that you should not be in that situation.

[/quote]

THANK YOU.  Why do we assume, in this country, that a woman's default state is "I clearly want to bone that guy"?  And that is something that needs to be overcome by her saying "no"?  The burden shouldn't be on the woman to disprove that she wanted to fuck some guy.  The burden should be on the guy to establish that she affirmatively wants to have sex with him.[/quote]

I suppose that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing has got to go, then.  [/quote]

PP here -- please explain how what I wrote challenges the presumption of innocence?  We don't require mugging victims to prove that they didn't want to give the thief their money.  We don't require assault victims to prove that they weren't attacking the accused and that therefore the assault wasn't self-defense.  Victim consent should be an affirmative defense, like self defense, and the burden should be on the accused to establish it.[/quote]

If victim consent becomes an affirmative defense, rather than an element of the offense, you have basically criminalized all sex.  What are the elements of the rape offense at that point?  Having sex.  That's all.  [/quote]

+1.

I agree with the posters who say that we should educate our sons on this issue....about participating something like this and witnessing something like this.  No one should be treated like this.  And I would be beyond horrified if my sons were anywhere near this.

However, as the mother of sons (and daughters), making consent an affirmative defense and requiring proof of consent goes too far the other way. At my youngest DS's HS, there have been 2 false allegations of sexual contact (groping) this school year alone.  I won't go into the backstory, but in both cases, the girls were angry at being spurned by the boys.  And let's face it, there is a stigma connected with even being accused of rape. So it would be equally horrifying to me to see a boy stigmatized becase a girl knew she could damage him most by falsely accusing him.  And there are recent cases in the news of it happening.  Physical evidence of rape is becoming increasingly easier to get (DNA, rape kits, etc.)  But how does one prove consent - have her sign a contract beforehand?

[/quote]

And how does one prove that she didn't want to have sex?  Have him sign a statement that she didn't want to have sex?  DNA just shows that sex occurred.  Do we really want to require women to resist to the point of physical harm?  Do we want to teach our boys that it's ok to coerce/threaten a girl into having sex even if she doesn't want to up until you have to hurt her?  THat if you just wait until that girl who doesn't like you gets drunk enough, maybe you can nail her?  [b]Yes, there is a significant stigma to false accusations, but I don't think you can compare the stigma of being falsely accused to the stigma of being sexually assaulted, either in severity or in frequency[/b].[/quote]

PP here.  YOu are taking the argument far afield. We were talking about flipping the burden of proof in a prosecution.  I already agreed on the rest of the points. I have both sons and daughters and we have talked about this case at length in our home.  The boys who did this and witnessed this should be prosecuted.

Why does there have to be a comparison?  Is that even the point?  IMO, both stigmas are equally as horrible and damaging for the person that it applies to. [/quote]

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