MCPS report cards -- how common is ES?

[Anonymous]

I think we as parents just need to let go of our expectations for a bit, and see what happens. This is a good reminder that we shouldn't over-emphasize report cards with our childrens. If there is an IP, maybe talk to the child/teacher about what could be worked on. Otherwise, just let it go. It is my impression from talking with other parents that different teachers are giving out ES grades at slightly different rates and have varying interpretations. Truth is, it barely seems to matter. It IS frustrating, though. We have a 3rd grade son who always had "o" grades for everything from K-2. (Even the last scale took some getting used to!) Now in 3rd grade he has all Ps and two IPs. I don't know if his work is slipping, or if it's just the grading system. I'm kind of glad I never showed him too much excitment about his "o's", because if I had he might be stressed about the lack of ESes. (Our first grader, on the other hand, has a few ESes, but I don't know what that means, either! I really think it could just be the different interpretation of the grading system that different teachers have.) It has taken the fun out of report cards for me. But maybe that's not a bad thing, if it has also taken the suffering out of report cards for kids who got "bad" grades under the old system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the lady who thinks you can't establish any criteria for grading essays: all you have to do is google grading essays and you'll get plenty of hits. Lots of standardized tests include an essay. The SAT includes an essay and you can see info online about how the essay needs to be written in order to get full credit.

No kidding... The SAT has an essay you say...

The fact that the SAT requires 2 different evaluators and possibly a third shows you how subjective it is by nature. The wording used "demonstrates consistent mastery", " reasonably consistent mastery" is what way gives confidence that a writer knows what is expected/ required? Furthermore how is this any different than wording found in 2.0 literature.

Nice try though

[Anonymous]

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

This is exactly why I hate this new grading system and curriculum. Effort that leads to achievement should be rewarded over achievement that required little effort. If the ESs are only given when a child goes beyond any material spontaneously then it isn't effort driven, its interest driven. I believe that education is about rewarding merit not inheritance. Education is about opening opportunities for everyone. Kids should be learning in elementary school that if you keep trying and work hard you will able to achieve the highest level. Kids get ESs in subjects where they have natural talents but there is no motivation at all for them to do anything but the minimum in other subjects. They are not working harder in areas where they get ESs, the subjects simply are ones where they are more talented or have independent interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the lady who thinks you can't establish any criteria for grading essays: all you have to do is google grading essays and you'll get plenty of hits. Lots of standardized tests include an essay. The SAT includes an essay and you can see info online about how the essay needs to be written in order to get full credit.

No kidding... The SAT has an essay you say...

The fact that the SAT requires 2 different evaluators and possibly a third shows you how subjective it is by nature. The wording used "demonstrates consistent mastery", " reasonably consistent mastery" is what way gives confidence that a writer knows what is expected/ required? Furthermore how is this any different than wording found in 2.0 literature.

Nice try though

Are you debate team captain this year? Moving on!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

This is exactly why I hate this new grading system and curriculum. Effort that leads to achievement should be rewarded over achievement that required little effort. If the ESs are only given when a child goes beyond any material spontaneously then it isn't effort driven, its interest driven. I believe that education is about rewarding merit not inheritance. Education is about opening opportunities for everyone. Kids should be learning in elementary school that if you keep trying and work hard you will able to achieve the highest level. Kids get ESs in subjects where they have natural talents but there is no motivation at all for them to do anything but the minimum in other subjects. They are not working harder in areas where they get ESs, the subjects simply are ones where they are more talented or have independent interest.

Exactly!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

This is exactly why I hate this new grading system and curriculum. Effort that leads to achievement should be rewarded over achievement that required little effort. If the ESs are only given when a child goes beyond any material spontaneously then it isn't effort driven, its interest driven. I believe that education is about rewarding merit not inheritance. Education is about opening opportunities for everyone. Kids should be learning in elementary school that if you keep trying and work hard you will able to achieve the highest level. Kids get ESs in subjects where they have natural talents but there is no motivation at all for them to do anything but the minimum in other subjects. They are not working harder in areas where they get ESs, the subjects simply are ones where they are more talented or have independent interest.

Why should students be rewarded for simply "effort" when they are not in the real world. Effort and demonstrated proficiency should rightly be evaluated independently

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

This is exactly why I hate this new grading system and curriculum. Effort that leads to achievement should be rewarded over achievement that required little effort. If the ESs are only given when a child goes beyond any material spontaneously then it isn't effort driven, its interest driven. I believe that education is about rewarding merit not inheritance. Education is about opening opportunities for everyone. Kids should be learning in elementary school that if you keep trying and work hard you will able to achieve the highest level. Kids get ESs in subjects where they have natural talents but there is no motivation at all for them to do anything but the minimum in other subjects. They are not working harder in areas where they get ESs, the subjects simply are ones where they are more talented or have independent interest.

But the point of the elementary "grading" is not to reward, really. It is to show where the students are. There is a clear difference between the elementary and MS/HS report cards. I agree with much of what you are saying, maybe all of it. The report card is a report: this is what your child knows. Your child has master this, this and this, and has not yet mastered this and this. In MS/MS, the report card shows what your child knows AND what they are demonstrating they know. My use of the word "effort" was not to convey that effort is all that counts, or that students can get As for simply trying really, really hard. I meant that students who do NOT receive top grades may know the material but choose not to put forth the effort to show it. The elementary school report is meant to side-step this, and report what the student knows, even if they put forth very little effort to show that they know it.

The elementary report card is not about "achieving the highest level." This could be a flaw, but it is important to understand this. There is a different mindset from elementary to MS/HS. I would not argue that this system would be beneficial in MS/HS, and even in upper elementary I'm not 100% convinced it will be better than the traditional grading system. Yes, kids will receive ESs in a subject for which they have a natural talent and perhaps do very little, because ES means they have shown exceptional understanding. They understand and "get it." Doesn't mean they've done anything. Maybe a case for moving away from rewarding young children for grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

This is exactly why I hate this new grading system and curriculum. Effort that leads to achievement should be rewarded over achievement that required little effort. If the ESs are only given when a child goes beyond any material spontaneously then it isn't effort driven, its interest driven. I believe that education is about rewarding merit not inheritance. Education is about opening opportunities for everyone. Kids should be learning in elementary school that if you keep trying and work hard you will able to achieve the highest level. Kids get ESs in subjects where they have natural talents but there is no motivation at all for them to do anything but the minimum in other subjects. They are not working harder in areas where they get ESs, the subjects simply are ones where they are more talented or have independent interest.

But the point of the elementary "grading" is not to reward, really. It is to show where the students are. There is a clear difference between the elementary and MS/HS report cards. I agree with much of what you are saying, maybe all of it. The report card is a report: this is what your child knows. Your child has master this, this and this, and has not yet mastered this and this. In MS/MS, the report card shows what your child knows AND what they are demonstrating they know. My use of the word "effort" was not to convey that effort is all that counts, or that students can get As for simply trying really, really hard. I meant that students who do NOT receive top grades may know the material but choose not to put forth the effort to show it. The elementary school report is meant to side-step this, and report what the student knows, even if they put forth very little effort to show that they know it.

The elementary report card is not about "achieving the highest level." This could be a flaw, but it is important to understand this. There is a different mindset from elementary to MS/HS. I would not argue that this system would be beneficial in MS/HS, and even in upper elementary I'm not 100% convinced it will be better than the traditional grading system. Yes, kids will receive ESs in a subject for which they have a natural talent and perhaps do very little, because ES means they have shown exceptional understanding. They understand and "get it." Doesn't mean they've done anything. Maybe a case for moving away from rewarding young children for grades.

You are one of the few who seems to get it. I don't necessarily agree with everything you say but I appreciate your objective thinking.

[Anonymous]

You missed an important distinction. I believe that effort that leads to achievement should be rewarded not effort alone. Big difference.

Elementary school is about learning foundational skills. The lesson that if you work hard even in areas where your interest or natural abilities don't give you an advantage, you can achieve the top rating is really critical to future success in later academics. Any higher level success requires perseverance. If you take away incentives to achieve, which is what this system is doing, you rob kids of learning this skills. You also box kids into not discovering that they may actually like an academic area that didn't come easily to them once they broke through a barrier.

Measurement should be consistent and defined. I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case. A larger problem is that some teachers have removed unit testing and are assessing based on going observation. They can not produce any evidence of what the kids are actually learning or not.

[Anonymous]

I understand that you believe effort that leads to achievement should rewarded, and not simply effort that produces no results. You say "if you take away incentives to achieve...you rob kids of learning this skill[s]." That may be very true. But this report card is not meant to be an incentive or reward. It is a report.

[Anonymous]

Here is my take. If your DC is performing way above grade level, you will know it. You will hear about it constantly. Everyone, I mean everyone, will tell you so: from principal to guidance counselor to teachers, from parents who have your child over for play dates to coaches and music instructors. People will use words like “phenomenal,” “brilliant,” and “incredible” to describe your DC. People will tell you’ve they’ve rarely, if ever, come across anything like your child.
I have two children in elementary school. One is as described above and the other is a more typical, still smart MCPS student. If I had only the second one, I would think he was gifted. But I have a stark comparison in my home every day of the week. And yes, the gifted child got almost all ES’s and my other one, who is also very bright, got all P’s. They are both getting a lot out of school and really enjoying the curriculum.
I feel like we should all lighten up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is my take. If your DC is performing way above grade level, you will know it. You will hear about it constantly. Everyone, I mean everyone, will tell you so: from principal to guidance counselor to teachers, from parents who have your child over for play dates to coaches and music instructors. People will use words like “phenomenal,” “brilliant,” and “incredible” to describe your DC. People will tell you’ve they’ve rarely, if ever, come across anything like your child.
I have two children in elementary school. One is as described above and the other is a more typical, still smart MCPS student. If I had only the second one, I would think he was gifted. But I have a stark comparison in my home every day of the week. And yes, the gifted child got almost all ES’s and my other one, who is also very bright, got all P’s. They are both getting a lot out of school and really enjoying the curriculum.
I feel like we should all lighten up.

I feel like you should lighten up. We've already heard a lot about your genius kid. You sound like a self-aggrandizing pseudo intellectual.

[Anonymous]

Here is my take. If your DC is performing way above grade level, you will know it. You will hear about it constantly. Everyone, I mean everyone, will tell you so: from principal to guidance counselor to teachers, from parents who have your child over for play dates to coaches and music instructors. People will use words like “phenomenal,” “brilliant,” and “incredible” to describe your DC. People will tell you’ve they’ve rarely, if ever, come across anything like your child.
I have two children in elementary school. One is as described above and the other is a more typical, still smart MCPS student. If I had only the second one, I would think he was gifted. But I have a stark comparison in my home every day of the week. And yes, the gifted child got almost all ES’s and my other one, who is also very bright, got all P’s. They are both getting a lot out of school and really enjoying the curriculum.
I feel like we should all lighten up.

The few gifted kids in my elementary school did have straight ES so I seriously doubt any of your children are gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

Why are you (people) obsessed with ES?!?! In my opinion WAAAYYY too many A's are given out to where its meaningless. It should be rare to get a top grade.

In the end it doesn't really matter, if you are proficient you are proficient. People show proficiency in different ways. The kid with the ES is not over your child. Gosh..

I am PP to which you respond. I agree that ES should be rare. My point was that it should be clear to all what is necessary to get an ES. Although I also agree with you that the kid with an ES is not any better than another child, the reality of the system is that "better" grades determine access to academic opportunities. Those kids with lots of ES grades will be the ones that get into the HGC or the middle school magnets or access to accelerated 4/5/6 math curriculum. Shouldn't it be clear to all what is necessary to get those kinds of grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, that is not what I am saying. Sorry if I was not completely clear. In MS algebra, the student receives a grade based his performance on assessments. It's possible that he can fully comprehend the material, but choose to put forth no effort on the test, and therefore fail. The teacher couldn't just say "But I know he knows it, he gets an A." If the same student were in 3rd grade and put forth no effort on an assessment, it is the teacher's job to find another way for him to show that he knows the material (through the "mutiple and varied ways of assessment"), especially if the teacher is confident that the student has in fact mastered the material. Obviously if the student receives an A in MS algebra, he has acquired the skills AND shown that he has acquired the skills. But if he fails, it does not automatically mean that he has not acquired the skills; it means that he has not shown that he has. Similarly, a student in high school could have great understanding of social studies, but rush through essays or tests and not try very hard. Therefore her grade reflects the effort she put into demonstrating what she knows. In elementary school, she should receive a P (or ES) because she IS proficient in that concept. The teacher just needs to find a way for her to demonstrate that.

The elementary report card is showing what the student has learned. MS/HS is showing what the student has done.

Like I said, this is the way of thinking with the new report cards, not a perfect representation. I don't find it meaningless, just different than it was in previous years. If you look at it in this way, it makes more sense. If you don't want to look at it in this way, you will be just as baffled/outraged/frustrated as before.

Sorry, I called BS. That was not a nice way to make my point. I understand what you are saying. I agree that in elementary school teachers should make a bigger effort to find out what the child actually knows, not just what they are willing to demonstrate at a point in time, and that in middle school, kids are assumed to put forth effort to demonstrate knowledge. IME, it actually happens very little that the elementary school teacher goes the extra mile to see what a child who isn't performing in one situation actually knows. IMO, the new report card really doesn't measure kids better than the old one. Even in the old curriculum/report card, teachers were using a variety of graded situations to assess whether a child "knew" the skill or not. Yes, there were "formal" tests, but there was no need to switch to a new curriculum or report card format just to show that a child "IS" proficient in a concept. The old system was capable of assessing that as well. If MCPS wanted to de-emphasize the importance of one test as a measure of "proficiency" they could have done that just by changing the weighted value of a test in the broad cross-section of graded work in a particular unit.

BTW, if a middle school teacher thinks a child is not demonstrating proficiency but really does know the material, it is absolutely his/her moral obligation to get to the bottom of why rather than just letting that child fail and slip through the cracks.