MCPS report cards -- how common is ES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom of a K student. Got 1st report card. It tells me Nothing. There was no legend either. I had to ask what p stands for. Is this seriously what report cards will look like? I'm already not happy with the curriculum and how it's taught in my DD's school. The report card offered nothing in the way of seeing how she is really doing.

To me the grading is fine.. there is a legend on the back of the report card that I received so I can tell what P, I, ES and N stand for..

The main issue I think is what the actual categories mean. There is no way a parent can easily interpret what algebaric expressions or synthesis means. You might know or think you know but there should be some explanation as to what each "learning skill" consists of.

Doesn't your child ever bring home classwork or homework? I could tell by looking at DS's homework that they were working on algebraic thinking.

My child is in K so no there was not much algebraic thinking worksheets coming home. But my point was not what I can interpret my point is what the average parent can. It shouldn't be a huge leap to provide descriptions for the categories being graded on and parents shouldn't have to dig through the layers of the website to find it....

But you don't have to dig through layers of the website to find out what your child's grade was based on. Just send the teacher an e-mail and ask. I am not a big fan of these report cards either, and I think the grading standards are varying widely across schools. But the value of the grade system and what they will mean in the longterm are separate questions from why an individual child received a particular grade. If parents don't understand why their children received a particular grade and what it is based on, the BOE can't help. the parent needs to ask the teacher.

LOL, you don't know our teacher... digging through layers of internet is much more productive than interacting with the person through email.

But again its not much to ask to define the skill areas on the report card. I'm savvy enough to get by but I know more than half of the parents out there do not know and may never know what "synthesis" is evaluating. I don't think there's even an argument here...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid got one ES in a special (forgot which one...bc these report cards are so silly...2.0 essentially makes grades meaningless).

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

It made a heck of a lot mroe sense to me once I started looking at this way.

This is BS. Are you saying that a grade in MS Algebra denotes how much effort you put in? No, it is supposed to reflect that you acquired the algebraic skills, because if you don't acquire them to a high enough degree, you can not move on successfully to the next level of math. All grades should denote whether skills have been met or they are meaningless. Work study skills grades are useless, IMO, since they are just holistically given by the teacher and not based on any documented performance, meaning they are highly subject to bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

The problem I have with this model is that it is basically "what color am I thinking of?" Meaning, it is completely subjective and there is no direction given. You are asking a 3rd grader to imagine and then create what a teacher might want (but doesn't tell you in advance). That is asking an awful lot of a young child and asking for a level of precociousness that isn't, in and of itself, indicative of mastery of the subject matter.

Imagine if, at your job, your boss said "in order to get the highest performance assessment, you have to do something extraordinary but I won't tell you what that is." An adult would find this arbitrary and unsettling - why would a child not feel the same way?

Another problem with this model is that if most of the kids get a P (unless they read the teacher's mind, create problems on their own, solve them and describe them in a manner that pleases the teacher!), then most kids look exactly the same on paper. So, that tells me that, eventually, in order to differentiate kids, schools will HAVE TO rely on some standardized test. So by not differentiating kids in the classroom, aren't we creating a system where only the "good-standardized-test-takers" will be able to rise above. When I was in school, there were some kids who didn't do as well on standardized tests, but were amazing in the classroom, creative, etc., and the report card reflected all of that. Now, if the report card from the classroom doesn't say anything, we are - maybe inadvertently - making the standardized test the ONLY differentiating factor for these kids. Am I right?

+1000.

I think a huge problem with this "hide the ball" grading (or as you call it "what color am I thinking of") is that it, once again, makes it a mystery what to do to perform well. This usually hurts low income and minority groups the most and contributes to inequity.

By contrast, the previous curriculum was much more transparent -- unit math guides for parents, clear tests results sent home by unit to parents, clear grading criteria (90/80/70, etc.) clear math tracks laid out, relatively clear criteria for access to a higher level math class, and deference ultimately (in theory at least() to parent placement decisions both to push ahead and hold back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

Why are you (people) obsessed with ES?!?! In my opinion WAAAYYY too many A's are given out to where its meaningless. It should be rare to get a top grade.

In the end it doesn't really matter, if you are proficient you are proficient. People show proficiency in different ways. The kid with the ES is not over your child. Gosh..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid got one ES in a special (forgot which one...bc these report cards are so silly...2.0 essentially makes grades meaningless).

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

It made a heck of a lot mroe sense to me once I started looking at this way.

This is BS. Are you saying that a grade in MS Algebra denotes how much effort you put in? No, it is supposed to reflect that you acquired the algebraic skills, because if you don't acquire them to a high enough degree, you can not move on successfully to the next level of math. All grades should denote whether skills have been met or they are meaningless. Work study skills grades are useless, IMO, since they are just holistically given by the teacher and not based on any documented performance, meaning they are highly subject to bias.

I'm not the PP but it most certainly can denote effort... If it was strict computational skills then why not just have tests and nothing else. Grades as far as I can recall are based on many other factors generally. Participation, projects, homework, etc. If I take the final exam and get a A+ but I never turned in any homework or didn't take it seriously so my A+ is reduced to a C does that mean I'm not proficient in computation? Certainly not.... I just demonstrated it via the exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid got one ES in a special (forgot which one...bc these report cards are so silly...2.0 essentially makes grades meaningless).

I think that's the point. Elementary school (in this school of thought, not saying I agree or disagree) is to acquire skills and show that you acquired them. They need to learn the material. If it takes them 10 tries or 2 tries, they need to become "proficient." Once they have learned it, time to move to something else, or go deeper. It's a different mindset than in MS/HS, where students learn the matieral and then get graded on what they choose to do. In a perfect world in which all students learn everything they are taught, the grading system of MS/HS is really grading effort. The elementary school system with these report cards is showing what they have actually learned. The work study skills grades tell you about their effort, which is essentially they part the student has the most control over. That's what I immedaitely turn to now when report cards come home.

It made a heck of a lot mroe sense to me once I started looking at this way.

This is BS. Are you saying that a grade in MS Algebra denotes how much effort you put in? No, it is supposed to reflect that you acquired the algebraic skills, because if you don't acquire them to a high enough degree, you can not move on successfully to the next level of math. All grades should denote whether skills have been met or they are meaningless. Work study skills grades are useless, IMO, since they are just holistically given by the teacher and not based on any documented performance, meaning they are highly subject to bias.

No, that is not what I am saying. Sorry if I was not completely clear. In MS algebra, the student receives a grade based his performance on assessments. It's possible that he can fully comprehend the material, but choose to put forth no effort on the test, and therefore fail. The teacher couldn't just say "But I know he knows it, he gets an A." If the same student were in 3rd grade and put forth no effort on an assessment, it is the teacher's job to find another way for him to show that he knows the material (through the "mutiple and varied ways of assessment"), especially if the teacher is confident that the student has in fact mastered the material. Obviously if the student receives an A in MS algebra, he has acquired the skills AND shown that he has acquired the skills. But if he fails, it does not automatically mean that he has not acquired the skills; it means that he has not shown that he has. Similarly, a student in high school could have great understanding of social studies, but rush through essays or tests and not try very hard. Therefore her grade reflects the effort she put into demonstrating what she knows. In elementary school, she should receive a P (or ES) because she IS proficient in that concept. The teacher just needs to find a way for her to demonstrate that.

The elementary report card is showing what the student has learned. MS/HS is showing what the student has done.

Like I said, this is the way of thinking with the new report cards, not a perfect representation. I don't find it meaningless, just different than it was in previous years. If you look at it in this way, it makes more sense. If you don't want to look at it in this way, you will be just as baffled/outraged/frustrated as before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom of a K student. Got 1st report card. It tells me Nothing. There was no legend either. I had to ask what p stands for. Is this seriously what report cards will look like? I'm already not happy with the curriculum and how it's taught in my DD's school. The report card offered nothing in the way of seeing how she is really doing.

To me the grading is fine.. there is a legend on the back of the report card that I received so I can tell what P, I, ES and N stand for..

The main issue I think is what the actual categories mean. There is no way a parent can easily interpret what algebaric expressions or synthesis means. You might know or think you know but there should be some explanation as to what each "learning skill" consists of.

I agree. My 1st grader's only "I" was in "Reading - Literature" yet he was P in all the other reading categories and is reading at close to a 3rd grade level (according to the chart on the report card). So I don't really understand what his deficiency is because I don't know what "Reading - Literature" means.

I have the same type of question. My first grader's report card places him at the 3rd grade for level for reading. Then he has P for foundational skill. You cannot be above grade level and on grade level in foundational skills at the same time. This new system is purely subjective and grades obviously vary tremendously from school to school. At least the old system was based on some data. And what is "exceptional at the grade level standard"? You can be above grade level based on data but not exceptional on the grade level? MCPS really got bilked on this Pearson contract. I don't care if they call him P or ES but this report card is useless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

Why are you (people) obsessed with ES?!?! In my opinion WAAAYYY too many A's are given out to where its meaningless. It should be rare to get a top grade.

In the end it doesn't really matter, if you are proficient you are proficient. People show proficiency in different ways. The kid with the ES is not over your child. Gosh..

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right that "it should be rare to get a top grade." Ok, fair enough. But, isn't it also fair to be clear about the expectations? I'm fine with not giving out A's or ES's or whatever letter unless they are truly earned. The problem here is that no one can explain to parents (or to kids), with any legitimate degree of clarity, exactly what is required to earn that grade. My issue is not with how many top grades are earned/given, my problem is that no one knows what is required to earn those grades.

Let's use the real world as an example here. Laws and regulations can't be "arbitrary and capricious" because of the inherent unfairness created when there is no clear direction about what is legal/acceptable. In my opinion, 2.0 and it's grading policy is the definition of arbitrary and capricious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

Why are you (people) obsessed with ES?!?! In my opinion WAAAYYY too many A's are given out to where its meaningless. It should be rare to get a top grade.

In the end it doesn't really matter, if you are proficient you are proficient. People show proficiency in different ways. The kid with the ES is not over your child. Gosh..

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right that "it should be rare to get a top grade." Ok, fair enough. But, isn't it also fair to be clear about the expectations? I'm fine with not giving out A's or ES's or whatever letter unless they are truly earned. The problem here is that no one can explain to parents (or to kids), with any legitimate degree of clarity, exactly what is required to earn that grade. My issue is not with how many top grades are earned/given, my problem is that no one knows what is required to earn those grades.

Let's use the real world as an example here. Laws and regulations can't be "arbitrary and capricious" because of the inherent unfairness created when there is no clear direction about what is legal/acceptable. In my opinion, 2.0 and it's grading policy is the definition of arbitrary and capricious.

It is stipulated but understanding cannot be explained...

When you write an essay how does one determine what's an A essay versus a B essay? You can't.... Instructors simply know it when they see it.

Your asking for something that is not applicable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

Why are you (people) obsessed with ES?!?! In my opinion WAAAYYY too many A's are given out to where its meaningless. It should be rare to get a top grade.

In the end it doesn't really matter, if you are proficient you are proficient. People show proficiency in different ways. The kid with the ES is not over your child. Gosh..

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right that "it should be rare to get a top grade." Ok, fair enough. But, isn't it also fair to be clear about the expectations? I'm fine with not giving out A's or ES's or whatever letter unless they are truly earned. The problem here is that no one can explain to parents (or to kids), with any legitimate degree of clarity, exactly what is required to earn that grade. My issue is not with how many top grades are earned/given, my problem is that no one knows what is required to earn those grades.

Let's use the real world as an example here. Laws and regulations can't be "arbitrary and capricious" because of the inherent unfairness created when there is no clear direction about what is legal/acceptable. In my opinion, 2.0 and it's grading policy is the definition of arbitrary and capricious.

It is stipulated but understanding cannot be explained...

When you write an essay how does one determine what's an A essay versus a B essay? You can't.... Instructors simply know it when they see it.

Your asking for something that is not applicable

Baloney. It is entirely possible to establish grading criteria, even for writing an essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:22:45 here - My ES in math kid tends to go crazy on math assignments...he does the basic work but then writes almost proofs or long explanations of what he's doing, spontaneously provides other examples, gives the teacher new problem sets on the back. He also uses much larger numbers than the worksheets might suggest, so if it is a simple thing on even and odds (just an example, this is something they did much earlier in the year), he will compare numbers in the millions or something with decimals, etc. He also does things with negative numbers, fractions, etc. He basically just challenges himself for fun on the worksheets.

Thats great and exactly what I think ES is intended to be... not just that everything was done correctly but that student went above and beyond what was asked for...

I think it's great this child does this, but crazy that that would be required for an ES. Kids, by their nature, usually don't go and make up their own school work. Also, many kids (even in 3rd grade) are balancing school, sports, family life and other activity. Frankly, in our house, our oldest is like the child described above, and I often have to say -- "stop, think about your time. If you want to go to basketball practice, just finish the worksheet as asked and stop going beyond. You can do beyond, later after practice on your own."

Also, on a policy level, it's not appropriate to have ES be for non-explicit criteria (i.e. going beyond and answering questions that aren't even on the worksheet). In many cultures this wouldn't even be within the realm of expectations. And, there's really no way to "grade" what is offered beyond the worksheet.

Why are you (people) obsessed with ES?!?! In my opinion WAAAYYY too many A's are given out to where its meaningless. It should be rare to get a top grade.

In the end it doesn't really matter, if you are proficient you are proficient. People show proficiency in different ways. The kid with the ES is not over your child. Gosh..

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right that "it should be rare to get a top grade." Ok, fair enough. But, isn't it also fair to be clear about the expectations? I'm fine with not giving out A's or ES's or whatever letter unless they are truly earned. The problem here is that no one can explain to parents (or to kids), with any legitimate degree of clarity, exactly what is required to earn that grade. My issue is not with how many top grades are earned/given, my problem is that no one knows what is required to earn those grades.

Let's use the real world as an example here. Laws and regulations can't be "arbitrary and capricious" because of the inherent unfairness created when there is no clear direction about what is legal/acceptable. In my opinion, 2.0 and it's grading policy is the definition of arbitrary and capricious.

It is stipulated but understanding cannot be explained...

When you write an essay how does one determine what's an A essay versus a B essay? You can't.... Instructors simply know it when they see it.

Your asking for something that is not applicable

Baloney. It is entirely possible to establish grading criteria, even for writing an essay.

Please provide an example then. They should be everywhere if you are correct.

[Anonymous]

My first grader received no ESs and one I on the regular report card and one in a special, and the rest were Ps. There were no comments on the report card. Given that almost everything was a P AND THERE ARE NO COMMENTS, it's hard to know what her relative strengths and weaknesses are. Did anyone get comments?

[Anonymous]

No comments for either kid but did get comments for both last marking period. My first grader got one ES and my third grader got none. Third grader is in pull out math and reading and is completely confused about what he needs for an ES.

[Anonymous]

To the lady who thinks you can't establish any criteria for grading essays: all you have to do is google grading essays and you'll get plenty of hits. Lots of standardized tests include an essay. The SAT includes an essay and you can see info online about how the essay needs to be written in order to get full credit.