MCPS report cards -- how common is ES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Please provide an example then. They should be everywhere if you are correct.

They are everywhere. Every writing project my elementary and middle school child has is accompanied by a scoring rubric. This rubric says exactly what the child has to do to get varying grades. "Give three examples from the text -- 5 pts. Give 2 examples from the text -- 2 points. Give 1 example from the text -- 1pt." The rubrics usually have 4-5 areas that deal with organization of the writing, editing, supporting examples, research, etc. and accompanying descriptions of level of detail required in each category and number of points earned.

BTW, if it's not possible to articulate why a certain essay has earned a certain grade, it's also not possible to articulate why one piece of writing is better than another. If you can't articulate why a piece of writing is better (other than "I know it when I see it). You also can not articulate the process of writing adequately enough to teach writing. Writing is being taught every day in MCPS classrooms. I might not agree with the formulaic way it is being taught, but it is possible to articulate writing criteria and use them to grade and teach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please provide an example then. They should be everywhere if you are correct.

They are everywhere. Every writing project my elementary and middle school child has is accompanied by a scoring rubric. This rubric says exactly what the child has to do to get varying grades. "Give three examples from the text -- 5 pts. Give 2 examples from the text -- 2 points. Give 1 example from the text -- 1pt." The rubrics usually have 4-5 areas that deal with organization of the writing, editing, supporting examples, research, etc. and accompanying descriptions of level of detail required in each category and number of points earned.

BTW, if it's not possible to articulate why a certain essay has earned a certain grade, it's also not possible to articulate why one piece of writing is better than another. If you can't articulate why a piece of writing is better (other than "I know it when I see it). You also can not articulate the process of writing adequately enough to teach writing. Writing is being taught every day in MCPS classrooms. I might not agree with the formulaic way it is being taught, but it is possible to articulate writing criteria and use them to grade and teach.

My turn to call BS... learning how to write grammar, organization, etc... is not the same as evaluating writers who haven learned the fundamentals. In the SAT example, given previously grading based on "2 examples versus 1 example" is certainly not used because it has no bearing on whether the work is good or not.

Good writing does not follow any rules its an art moreso than a procedural process to follow. Are the great Authors worldwide great because they followed a rubric?

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I called BS. That was not a nice way to make my point. I understand what you are saying. I agree that in elementary school teachers should make a bigger effort to find out what the child actually knows, not just what they are willing to demonstrate at a point in time, and that in middle school, kids are assumed to put forth effort to demonstrate knowledge. IME, it actually happens very little that the elementary school teacher goes the extra mile to see what a child who isn't performing in one situation actually knows. IMO, the new report card really doesn't measure kids better than the old one. Even in the old curriculum/report card, teachers were using a variety of graded situations to assess whether a child "knew" the skill or not. Yes, there were "formal" tests, but there was no need to switch to a new curriculum or report card format just to show that a child "IS" proficient in a concept. The old system was capable of assessing that as well. If MCPS wanted to de-emphasize the importance of one test as a measure of "proficiency" they could have done that just by changing the weighted value of a test in the broad cross-section of graded work in a particular unit.

BTW, if a middle school teacher thinks a child is not demonstrating proficiency but really does know the material, it is absolutely his/her moral obligation to get to the bottom of why rather than just letting that child fail and slip through the cracks.

Point taken, and I understand your perspective. FYI, MCPS is required by law to update the curriculum every 10 years, thus the main reason for the new curriculum. Even if the old system was perfect, a new one was required. Unfortunately, the change appears to be quite drastic, and parents and teachers are left to iron out all the wrinkles.

As for your middle school example, I agree the teacher would be obligated to investigate why the student was under-performing (I used failure as an extreme example), but would not be expected to alter the assessment used to determine the grade. In elementary school, teachers are expected to do just that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please provide an example then. They should be everywhere if you are correct.

They are everywhere. Every writing project my elementary and middle school child has is accompanied by a scoring rubric. This rubric says exactly what the child has to do to get varying grades. "Give three examples from the text -- 5 pts. Give 2 examples from the text -- 2 points. Give 1 example from the text -- 1pt." The rubrics usually have 4-5 areas that deal with organization of the writing, editing, supporting examples, research, etc. and accompanying descriptions of level of detail required in each category and number of points earned.

BTW, if it's not possible to articulate why a certain essay has earned a certain grade, it's also not possible to articulate why one piece of writing is better than another. If you can't articulate why a piece of writing is better (other than "I know it when I see it). You also can not articulate the process of writing adequately enough to teach writing. Writing is being taught every day in MCPS classrooms. I might not agree with the formulaic way it is being taught, but it is possible to articulate writing criteria and use them to grade and teach.

My turn to call BS... learning how to write grammar, organization, etc... is not the same as evaluating writers who haven learned the fundamentals. In the SAT example, given previously grading based on "2 examples versus 1 example" is certainly not used because it has no bearing on whether the work is good or not.

Good writing does not follow any rules its an art moreso than a procedural process to follow. Are the great Authors worldwide great because they followed a rubric?

We're talking about teaching elementary students how to structure paragraphs with good topic sentences. We're not trying to write The Brothers Karamazov. Can you either stick to the topic or start your own literature thread?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Sorry, I called BS. That was not a nice way to make my point. I understand what you are saying. I agree that in elementary school teachers should make a bigger effort to find out what the child actually knows, not just what they are willing to demonstrate at a point in time, and that in middle school, kids are assumed to put forth effort to demonstrate knowledge. IME, it actually happens very little that the elementary school teacher goes the extra mile to see what a child who isn't performing in one situation actually knows. IMO, the new report card really doesn't measure kids better than the old one. Even in the old curriculum/report card, teachers were using a variety of graded situations to assess whether a child "knew" the skill or not. Yes, there were "formal" tests, but there was no need to switch to a new curriculum or report card format just to show...

Point taken, and I understand your perspective. [b]FYI, MCPS is required by law to update the curriculum every 10 years, thus the main reason for the new curriculum. Even if the old system was perfect, a new one was required. Unfortunately, the change appears to be quite drastic, and parents and teachers are left to iron out all the wrinkles.

As for your middle school example, I agree the teacher would be obligated to investigate why the student was under-performing (I used failure as an extreme example), but would not be expected to alter the assessment used to determine the grade. In elementary school, teachers are expected to do just that.

Interesting, this is the first I'd heard this. I thought it was all done for common core.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please provide an example then. They should be everywhere if you are correct.

They are everywhere. Every writing project my elementary and middle school child has is accompanied by a scoring rubric. This rubric says exactly what the child has to do to get varying grades. "Give three examples from the text -- 5 pts. Give 2 examples from the text -- 2 points. Give 1 example from the text -- 1pt." The rubrics usually have 4-5 areas that deal with organization of the writing, editing, supporting examples, research, etc. and accompanying descriptions of level of detail required in each category and number of points earned.

BTW, if it's not possible to articulate why a certain essay has earned a certain grade, it's also not possible to articulate why one piece of writing is better than another. If you can't articulate why a piece of writing is better (other than "I know it when I see it). You also can not articulate the process of writing adequately enough to teach writing. Writing is being taught every day in MCPS classrooms. I might not agree with the formulaic way it is being taught, but it is possible to articulate writing criteria and use them to grade and teach.

My turn to call BS... learning how to write grammar, organization, etc... is not the same as evaluating writers who haven learned the fundamentals. In the SAT example, given previously grading based on "2 examples versus 1 example" is certainly not used because it has no bearing on whether the work is good or not.

Good writing does not follow any rules its an art moreso than a procedural process to follow. Are the great Authors worldwide great because they followed a rubric?

We're talking about teaching elementary students how to structure paragraphs with good topic sentences. We're not trying to write The Brothers Karamazov. Can you either stick to the topic or start your own literature thread?

We are not talking about how to teach elementary students paragraphs we are talking about what is proficient versus exceptional. A student who follows rubrics is a P student a student who is able to pull different elements learned to form something new is an ES student. This can coalesce in many different ways that spelling out would only defeat the purpose.

[Anonymous]

Personally I don't think that grading needs to be this lacking in transparency. With regard to criteria for writing grades, I did receive a matrix from my kid's classroom teacher which provided a grading rubric for narrative writing. To get an ES, stories needed to begin with highly detailed description settings, include many rich descriptions of actions and thoughts, include strong pieces of dialogue, use correct punctuation throughout, include a clear conclusion, be written very neatly and be free of spelling errors. For us, that "written very neatly" part is impossible because my kid is just handwriting challenged. I have noticed that if he struggles to be neater, he can have the same content as when his writing is messier, but he'll get a much better grade-as in going from I to ES or N to P. Frustrating, because he can't type in the classroom- although we've started to allow him to type his homework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Here is my take. If your DC is performing way above grade level, you will know it. You will hear about it constantly. Everyone, I mean everyone, will tell you so: from principal to guidance counselor to teachers, from parents who have your child over for play dates to coaches and music instructors. People will use words like “phenomenal,” “brilliant,” and “incredible” to describe your DC. People will tell you’ve they’ve rarely, if ever, come across anything like your child.
I have two children in elementary school. One is as described above and the other is a more typical, still smart MCPS student. If I had only the second one, I would think he was gifted. But I have a stark comparison in my home every day of the week. And yes, the gifted child got almost all ES’s and my other one, who is also very bright, got all P’s. They are both getting a lot out of school and really enjoying the curriculum.
I feel like we should all lighten up.

The few gifted kids in my elementary school did have straight ES so I seriously doubt any of your children are gifted.

Okay, I can't take you too seriously because I have no idea if you know what you're talking about, or if you are even serious. But I thought there were a good number of gifted students who don't perform well at school (out of lack of interest, boredom, behavioral issues, whatever). I have a child who has been way above grade level and under-challenged for the first four years of school. She did not get ES grades this year so far. I truly don't know if she still ranks as "gifted" (though to me she is). But I am not going to believe that she's not just because she didn't get ES on his report card. She might be gifted and underperforming. She might be gifted and be in a pool of students with an abundance of more gifted kids (which seems close to true). She might be a quiet reticent student who just doesn't show her teacher what she knows. (this is definitely true.) She might have a teacher who doesn't "get" her. (have no idea of this is true, but am leaning towards thinking she gets her okay) In any case, I am sure you cannot say that all the gifted kids will have straight ES grades.

[Anonymous]

Okay, I can't take you too seriously because I have no idea if you know what you're talking about, or if you are even serious. But I thought there were a good number of gifted students who don't perform well at school (out of lack of interest, boredom, behavioral issues, whatever). I have a child who has been way above grade level and under-challenged for the first four years of school. She did not get ES grades this year so far. I truly don't know if she still ranks as "gifted" (though to me she is). But I am not going to believe that she's not just because she didn't get ES on his report card. She might be gifted and underperforming. She might be gifted and be in a pool of students with an abundance of more gifted kids (which seems close to true). She might be a quiet reticent student who just doesn't show her teacher what she knows. (this is definitely true.) She might have a teacher who doesn't "get" her. (have no idea of this is true, but am leaning towards thinking she gets her okay) In any case, I am sure you cannot say that all the gifted kids will have straight ES grades.

I agree with this. I don't think my kid is gifted but under the new system she is definitely underperforming in areas where she doesn't have interest. She gets straight Ps in these areas but since its not clear how you get an ES and the kids are told not to expect ES grades, she happily does the bare minimum. She has a very high IQ but she is not a motivated student. She gets ES grades in the areas where she has very high interest but the other areas to her are boring and easy. Last year, with the N, S and O..O was a way to motivate bright students to put forward effort and dig deeper into subjects that they are not as compelled to put forth effort. Her teacher and I would push her to do the work to get an O in these area because she could perform at this level with a little effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please provide an example then. They should be everywhere if you are correct.

They are everywhere. Every writing project my elementary and middle school child has is accompanied by a scoring rubric. This rubric says exactly what the child has to do to get varying grades. "Give three examples from the text -- 5 pts. Give 2 examples from the text -- 2 points. Give 1 example from the text -- 1pt." The rubrics usually have 4-5 areas that deal with organization of the writing, editing, supporting examples, research, etc. and accompanying descriptions of level of detail required in each category and number of points earned.

BTW, if it's not possible to articulate why a certain essay has earned a certain grade, it's also not possible to articulate why one piece of writing is better than another. If you can't articulate why a piece of writing is better (other than "I know it when I see it). You also can not articulate the process of writing adequately enough to teach writing. Writing is being taught every day in MCPS classrooms. I might not agree with the formulaic way it is being taught, but it is possible to articulate writing criteria and use them to grade and teach.

My turn to call BS... learning how to write grammar, organization, etc... is not the same as evaluating writers who haven learned the fundamentals. In the SAT example, given previously grading based on "2 examples versus 1 example" is certainly not used because it has no bearing on whether the work is good or not.

Good writing does not follow any rules its an art moreso than a procedural process to follow. Are the great Authors worldwide great because they followed a rubric?

Hmm. If it is true that you can't teach great writing (which is not the kind of writing that public schools teach), I wonder what all those people who run the MFA writing programs at places like Iowa are doing? And the people that are paying big money to attend those places?

Laura

[Anonymous]

Can I ask a question a little off topic on grading here?
My son is in Kindergarten and while he is not gifted, he reads quite well and speaks well. His preschool and now his kindergaren teacher tell me he is doing very well and there are no concerns whatesoever.

He got an N on his report card for punctuation. When I asked about this, the teacher said that it wasn't taught in the beginning of the year so all of his writing samples where he forgot a period at the end of a sentence would get an N for punctuation. Once it was taught, he did it and now gets a P on those assignments but they still average to an N.

This makes no sense. Why grade writing samples for things that haven't been taught? We didn't emphasize it at home because it didn't seem like a big deal yet and it was never mentioned in school until a few weeks before report cards went out and at that point, he did what was asked. So he got an N because most of his writing samples were great otherwise but didn't have punctuation (even though he was never told to do that or even corrected).

This seems ridiculous. It's only Kindergarten but is he going to get an N in second grade for not yet knowing Calculus? I'm happy to teach at home but I had no idea this was something to focus on.

This new system is awful. I'm going to contact the teacher again and say this still doesn't seem right to me.

[Anonymous]

I am the exception, I think. I would be happy with no grades in elementary school. I see the work that comes home and I see the great progress my 1st grader is making in everything, and I can tell he's doing fine. I see him reading all the signs on the road, and all the words on the cereal box. I hear him spontaneously coming up with things to add and subtract and telling me how he got his answers. Why isn't that enough?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a question a little off topic on grading here?
My son is in Kindergarten and while he is not gifted, he reads quite well and speaks well. His preschool and now his kindergaren teacher tell me he is doing very well and there are no concerns whatesoever.

He got an N on his report card for punctuation. When I asked about this, the teacher said that it wasn't taught in the beginning of the year so all of his writing samples where he forgot a period at the end of a sentence would get an N for punctuation. Once it was taught, he did it and now gets a P on those assignments but they still average to an N.

This makes no sense. Why grade writing samples for things that haven't been taught? We didn't emphasize it at home because it didn't seem like a big deal yet and it was never mentioned in school until a few weeks before report cards went out and at that point, he did what was asked. So he got an N because most of his writing samples were great otherwise but didn't have punctuation (even though he was never told to do that or even corrected).

This seems ridiculous. It's only Kindergarten but is he going to get an N in second grade for not yet knowing Calculus? I'm happy to teach at home but I had no idea this was something to focus on.

This new system is awful. I'm going to contact the teacher again and say this still doesn't seem right to me.

N stands for "not yet." Is he putting in punctuation in his writing? Nope, not yet. It's on the report card because it's something that is covered later on. And there are undoubtedly some children that ARE putting punctuation in their writing, even though it hasn't been taught yet. The report card is a report. I have tried to state this numerous times--the "grading" system is completely different and if you insist on attaching an ABCDE/OSN mentality, you will not understand it. It's not about rewarding students, it is a REPORT to tell you what they have learned thus far.

If Calculus were in the curriculum for 2nd grade (not yet, possibly in 5 years it will be) and it had not been taught to him yet, he would get an N, because he was "not yet" proficient.

N does not mean he is doing poorly in the subject, it means he is not yet proficient. And he is not yet proficient in punctuation. It is not something you need to focus on at home. His teacher will teach him, when that part of the writing curriculum arrives in the second semester.

[Anonymous]

Ach, and now I get an N for reading comprehension. Just re-read to see that he is now putting in punctuation but the average gave him an N. That does seem a little off--sorry for going off the deep end, that was really inappropriate and rude.

But honestly, I would not sweat this. It does seem "unfair" but the spirit of the report card is to show what he knows and not give him a reward. In this case, it is inaccurate (and seems off base with what's supposed to happen). The whole idea was to move away from averages, and to focus on where they end up. If it takes 2 tries or 10 tries, once they've shown proficiency, they are proficient, and it sounds like he should have gotten a P. Buuuuuut... it's a kindergarten report card, and you now have the accurate information, so you'll have to decide if it's worth your own bother and aggravation to contact the teacher and keep it going. If it was a middle or high school achievement-based report card, it might be worth a fight, but in this case, I would probably drop it. For now, at least.

Again, sorry for my rudeness.

[Anonymous]

No problem. I can see why you felt that way if you missed the point. I feel like maybe the grade isn't supposed to be an average but it was clearly explained to me that all grades are definitely an average and NOT representing where the child is at the time of the report card.

Also, the teacher knows my son is an enthusiastic learner and we do things at home (hoepfully fun learning games). Why wouldn't he mention this? "Hey, I'm grading your kid on something I haven't had time to teach yet so go over it at home, will ya?" No problem.

I think if your child is about to get an N on something, the teacher should warn you so you can help your child before he gets that grade. At our conference, everything was just wonderful and nothing to work on. This is really something that would not have taken much time to teach and reinforce (now that I think about it, why didn't the teacher just introduce it earlier if he was grading the kids on this!!)

As I learn this new system, I feel like I'm going to have to email the teacher and ask, "Is my child not doing well on anything you are grading him on but not teaching yet?"
That seems like the dumbest (yet very necessary) question!!