Why do we subsidize the Catholic Church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course, Catholics are outraged. I am Catholic and I am outraged. However, I am also outraged at the overall hatred and Catholic bashing that goes on because of this issue and the pass that is given to Protestant Churches for the same issue. The public should be outraged over child sexual abuse without a doubt. My point is that the public should be outraged by all child sexual abuse and not reserve that outrage solely for the Catholic Church.

I'm Catholic and this makes no sense at all. The things our church did are deserving of anger. Full stop. No one is reserving that anger solely for the Church, either. They condemn it wherever they see it. If the protestants have avoided scrutiny, it will catch up to them. But bad is bad, and our church has a unique problem -- that a global hierarchy conspired to hide it. The protestant churches, by their structure, will probably never have this because for the most part, their ministers are answerable to the local congregations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.

The Catholic Church reported all credible accusations not just those that involved insurance companies. Also, there would be no reporting of any kind for the plethora of "storefront" churches without the requisite insurance. The point being that the abuse in Protestant churches has never received the same scrutiny, public outrage or abundance of news coverage received by the Catholic Church. No doubt this is due in part to the actions of the Church itself, but I think there is a large issue at play. Thre is a general hatred of the Church for its conservative teachings and the idea of celibacy (by choice) is unfathomable in a society embracing few social or moral restrictions on sexuality. The point I was trying to make and which seemed to be lost on you, is that there is a constant barrage of "child rapist" comments thrown about on this forum without recognition that child abuse crosses denominational lines and indeed is prevalent in our society generally. I think it is dangerous to ignore the incidences of abuse in the Protestant churches (and indeed elsewhere) giving the impression that children are only unsafe in a Catholic setting.

Read 1438. No one is saying that pedophiles do not exist everywhere. Witness PennState. What is relatively unique about the Catholic Church is the fact that the Cardinals and Bishops themselves covered up much of the abuse. It is the cover up that fundamentally distinquishes what the Catholic Church did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.

The Catholic Church reported all credible accusations not just those that involved insurance companies. Also, there would be no reporting of any kind for the plethora of "storefront" churches without the requisite insurance. The point being that the abuse in Protestant churches has never received the same scrutiny, public outrage or abundance of news coverage received by the Catholic Church. No doubt this is due in part to the actions of the Church itself, but I think there is a large issue at play. Thre is a general hatred of the Church for its conservative teachings and the idea of celibacy (by choice) is unfathomable in a society embracing few social or moral restrictions on sexuality. The point I was trying to make and which seemed to be lost on you, is that there is a constant barrage of "child rapist" comments thrown about on this forum without recognition that child abuse crosses denominational lines and indeed is prevalent in our society generally. I think it is dangerous to ignore the incidences of abuse in the Protestant churches (and indeed elsewhere) giving the impression that children are only unsafe in a Catholic setting.

To the extent that there is push back on The Catholic Church, particularly the Conference of Bishops, that is because the Conference has been very aggresssive about pushing its conservative agenda onto the rest of the country. If the Conference can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Moreover, the "Church" has been very aggressive in promoting itself as the sole and rightful Christian Church. Many Christians, including most Catholics, fundamentally disagree with many current beliefs of "The Church." To this mainstream Protestant, "The Church" comes across as arrogant, overly rightious and hypocritical. When I mean "The Church," I mean the Conference and the Vatican, not practicising Catholics. While "The Church" can't be blamed for a few pedophiles in its midst, the Church is directly responsible for cover up, including Cardinals and Bishops still in power. The Church can come across as hypocritical in much the same as the right wing Evangelicals who preach family values and who later are revealed to be gays, sleeping around, etc. And there are multiple examples of the latter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.

The Catholic Church reported all credible accusations not just those that involved insurance companies. Also, there would be no reporting of any kind for the plethora of "storefront" churches without the requisite insurance. The point being that the abuse in Protestant churches has never received the same scrutiny, public outrage or abundance of news coverage received by the Catholic Church. No doubt this is due in part to the actions of the Church itself, but I think there is a large issue at play. Thre is a general hatred of the Church for its conservative teachings and the idea of celibacy (by choice) is unfathomable in a society embracing few social or moral restrictions on sexuality. The point I was trying to make and which seemed to be lost on you, is that there is a constant barrage of "child rapist" comments thrown about on this forum without recognition that child abuse crosses denominational lines and indeed is prevalent in our society generally. I think it is dangerous to ignore the incidences of abuse in the Protestant churches (and indeed elsewhere) giving the impression that children are only unsafe in a Catholic setting.

That is why we should keep our young children away from the churches. They are operated by a bunch of sex crazed freaks. First they take the parents monetary donations and when that is not enough they take away the sexual innocence of the children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.

The Catholic Church reported all credible accusations not just those that involved insurance companies. Also, there would be no reporting of any kind for the plethora of "storefront" churches without the requisite insurance. The point being that the abuse in Protestant churches has never received the same scrutiny, public outrage or abundance of news coverage received by the Catholic Church. No doubt this is due in part to the actions of the Church itself, but I think there is a large issue at play. Thre is a general hatred of the Church for its conservative teachings and the idea of celibacy (by choice) is unfathomable in a society embracing few social or moral restrictions on sexuality. The point I was trying to make and which seemed to be lost on you, is that there is a constant barrage of "child rapist" comments thrown about on this forum without recognition that child abuse crosses denominational lines and indeed is prevalent in our society generally. I think it is dangerous to ignore the incidences of abuse in the Protestant churches (and indeed elsewhere) giving the impression that children are only unsafe in a Catholic setting.

There was a story on NPR about three years ago discussing the prevalence of child abuse and pedophilia among Hasidic sects in New York. I remember it distinctly because I was driving and listening to the radio and was so shocked and horrified that I pulled over for a couple of minutes to regain my composure. Apparently there the problem is held under wraps in a wide conspiracy by most people in the know, as parents who are aware of it dare not say anything for fear that they'll be ostracized by their own community (which sounded akin to losing everything). I'm not religious, but my DH is Jewish, so in a sense I guess I felt prior to that we were "immune" from Catholic-style institutionalized pedophilia.

I was discussing the story a few weeks later with a Muslim friend, and he said softly that the same is known to happen with some Mullahs.

The moral of this is that you should serously question the motives of people who wish to become religious authority figures and pass on divine wisdom or intercede with God on your behalf.

[Anonymous]

That is why we should keep our young children away from the churches. They are operated by a bunch of sex crazed freaks. First they take the parents monetary donations and when that is not enough they take away the sexual innocence of the children.

The moral of this is that you should serously question the motives of people who wish to become religious authority figures and pass on divine wisdom or intercede with God on your behalf.

This is what you take away from these discussions? Perhaps we should go one step further and keep our children away for schools. I seems as if barely a week goes by that we don't hear about some abuse situation in schools. No daycares either or babysitters ever because abuse happens there, too. No sports because there are abusive coaches and this list goes on and on. What this signals to me is not that religion or religious leaders are inherently evil, or that daycares/babysitters are inherently evil or that coaches are inherently evil. What this tells me is that there are evil people in this world and we as a society have become so morally bankrupt that this evil is flourishing. When we no longer have social values or norms and everything is deemed acceptable ("if it feels good do it") we will have a subset of society who will take it to the worst possible limit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That is why we should keep our young children away from the churches. They are operated by a bunch of sex crazed freaks. First they take the parents monetary donations and when that is not enough they take away the sexual innocence of the children.

The moral of this is that you should serously question the motives of people who wish to become religious authority figures and pass on divine wisdom or intercede with God on your behalf.

This is what you take away from these discussions? Perhaps we should go one step further and keep our children away for schools. I seems as if barely a week goes by that we don't hear about some abuse situation in schools. No daycares either or babysitters ever because abuse happens there, too. No sports because there are abusive coaches and this list goes on and on. What this signals to me is not that religion or religious leaders are inherently evil, or that daycares/babysitters are inherently evil or that coaches are inherently evil. What this tells me is that there are evil people in this world and we as a society have become so morally bankrupt that this evil is flourishing. When we no longer have social values or norms and everything is deemed acceptable ("if it feels good do it") we will have a subset of society who will take it to the worst possible limit.

There is one big difference between a church and, say, a public school. The public schools do not conspire to hide child molesters. They don't move them into administrative jobs or send them to another assignment where the kids are older and hope the problem will go away. Public schools will suspend a teacher or coach, go straight to the police, and let the law take it from there.

I'm a churchgoer, and I don't share the sentiments of the earlier poster, but your slippery slope argument is not that solid. Churches, and especially churches with a big hierarchy like the Catholic Church, seem to have a particular problem that affects their ability to decisively act on problems when they do occur.

[Anonymous]

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/02/24/3450301/cardinal-ordered-aides-to-shred.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All religious organziations get tax preferences, accepting gay marriage is not christian, you must be some lib cult bullshit

Came across this quote today, which seemed pretty apropos:

As is so often the case I feel the need to make a rather obvious point here, but the only possible reasons for religious people to really want the government to get more involved in religion are either a) you really really really want theocracy, which doesn't really have anything to do with religious freedom (let's call this the evil reason) or b) you really don't understand that "religion" does not actually precisely equal "your religion" (let's call this the stupid reason). I'm sure there are people in column a) and column b), but I find the latter to be fairly fascinating. Is their exposure to the world really so limited? Has it not occurred to them, driving around, that all of the names given to the various Christian denominations might suggest that there are genuine differences in belief and practice? There are obvious important questions religious people should be asking about some of our dumber perennial controversies, such as when we're discussing organized prayer in schools, the question for religious people should probably be,"which prayers?"

Really the bottom line is, there are some very un-Christian Americans like PP who feel that since it's a Democracy, and they've got what they feel is a majority in favor of their particular point of dogma, therefore the State should be used to compel all Americans to follow the tenets of their particular faith. Yes, that's fucked up, and goes against everything this country was founded on, but there you go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All religious organziations get tax preferences, accepting gay marriage is not christian, you must be some lib cult bullshit

I'm not sure you'd understand "christianity" if it came up and bit you on your ass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we fund private schools that are made up of über wealthy families that could afford full rate if the schools paid taxes. Or organizations that only cater to a single race? Or why is the government forcing people to take contraceptives and forcing us to pay for it.

Wow, really? The governemnt is FORCING people to take contraceptives? What cave do you live in?

The government wants to make sure woman have a choice and access to control their fertility if they choose to do so. That's all. It just has to be available as an option. When you pay for insurance you pay for medication YOU may not take. I don't take Viagra, but I'm paying for it? GET IT??? You are paying for smokers lung cancer treatment also.

Do you realize that birth control helps some woman with medical conditions, it's not only for prevention of pregnancy? There are woman that have extremely heavy bleeding, that makes them anemic, birth control helps that. It also helps woman with hormonal inbalance as well. Just to name a few more common reason birth control is taken that is not related to pregnancy prevention. Do deny women this coverage is nothing short of discrimination. If you don't want to pay for my birth control, I don't want to pay for you Viagra, heart medication, insulin because I don't take those meds for my health.

Please, Please educate yourself before you make such a ridiculous statement.

You seem like a woman with hormonal imbalance. Pay for your own damn pills.

Your behavior is making Baby Jesus cry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do we fund private schools that are made up of über wealthy families that could afford full rate if the schools paid taxes. Or organizations that only cater to a single race? Or why is the government forcing people to take contraceptives and forcing us to pay for it.

If we defund religious organizations, we would also need to explore the possible repeal of the tax exempt status for private schools. It would be interesting to see how many financial aid recipients of the schools' charity fall around or close to the poverty line. A closer look at the tax exempt status of the Independent Schools finances is warranted. I hope employee benefits are not calculated as charitable giving.

[Anonymous]

A quote from Huff. Post comments:
is truly sad and pathetic when Far Right Religious Republicans cannot understand that their religion is protected by the separation of church and state. This has been the basis of our country for many years. In order for my freedom of religion to be guaranteed, I must also give that same freedom of religion to my fellow American. Not everyone has to believe in the same God -

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.

The Catholic Church reported all credible accusations not just those that involved insurance companies. Also, there would be no reporting of any kind for the plethora of "storefront" churches without the requisite insurance. The point being that the abuse in Protestant churches has never received the same scrutiny, public outrage or abundance of news coverage received by the Catholic Church. No doubt this is due in part to the actions of the Church itself, but I think there is a large issue at play. Thre is a general hatred of the Church for its conservative teachings and the idea of celibacy (by choice) is unfathomable in a society embracing few social or moral restrictions on sexuality. The point I was trying to make and which seemed to be lost on you, is that there is a constant barrage of "child rapist" comments thrown about on this forum without recognition that child abuse crosses denominational lines and indeed is prevalent in our society generally. I think it is dangerous to ignore the incidences of abuse in the Protestant churches (and indeed elsewhere) giving the impression that children are only unsafe in a Catholic setting.

Read 1438. No one is saying that pedophiles do not exist everywhere. Witness PennState. What is relatively unique about the Catholic Church is the fact that the Cardinals and Bishops themselves covered up much of the abuse. It is the cover up that fundamentally distinquishes what the Catholic Church did.

Yep. And continue to be unapologetic (and cover it up) to this day. Oh, and almost forgot, elected as Pope the head of the cover-up. If you can't imagine why such an organization would come under criticism, I'm not sure I can help you. If anything, the *lack* of outrage is notable. If the Catholic church were a daycare center, people would be braying for blood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.

The Catholic Church reported all credible accusations not just those that involved insurance companies. Also, there would be no reporting of any kind for the plethora of "storefront" churches without the requisite insurance. The point being that the abuse in Protestant churches has never received the same scrutiny, public outrage or abundance of news coverage received by the Catholic Church. No doubt this is due in part to the actions of the Church itself, but I think there is a large issue at play. Thre is a general hatred of the Church for its conservative teachings and the idea of celibacy (by choice) is unfathomable in a society embracing few social or moral restrictions on sexuality. The point I was trying to make and which seemed to be lost on you, is that there is a constant barrage of "child rapist" comments thrown about on this forum without recognition that child abuse crosses denominational lines and indeed is prevalent in our society generally. I think it is dangerous to ignore the incidences of abuse in the Protestant churches (and indeed elsewhere) giving the impression that children are only unsafe in a Catholic setting.

There was a story on NPR about three years ago discussing the prevalence of child abuse and pedophilia among Hasidic sects in New York. I remember it distinctly because I was driving and listening to the radio and was so shocked and horrified that I pulled over for a couple of minutes to regain my composure. Apparently there the problem is held under wraps in a wide conspiracy by most people in the know, as parents who are aware of it dare not say anything for fear that they'll be ostracized by their own community (which sounded akin to losing everything). I'm not religious, but my DH is Jewish, so in a sense I guess I felt prior to that we were "immune" from Catholic-style institutionalized pedophilia.

I was discussing the story a few weeks later with a Muslim friend, and he said softly that the same is known to happen with some Mullahs.

The moral of this is that you should serously question the motives of people who wish to become religious authority figures and pass on divine wisdom or intercede with God on your behalf.

The more sexually repressed a culture is (almost always driven by religious mania) the more deviant their sexuality becomes. I would have thought that the Protestant sects would tend to have more child molestation given that the religion is largely based on "accepting Jesus into your heart" then "listening to your heart" to try and discern what Jesus wants you to do. In that kind of closed system, it makes sense that predators find plenty of approval for their actions by "listening to their heart".

Religious communities like Hassidism and Islam have a pretty similar structure, in which there are countless charismatic "holy figures" who can pretty much do whatever the Hell they want as "grass-roots" figures of religious authority with zero oversight.

You'd think that in a strictly hierarchical institution like the Catholic Church there'd be less tolerance for that sort of behavior, given that there's some element of oversight. But maybe it's the very authoritarian nature of the institution that makes it difficult for parents to suspect (or challenge if suspected) abuse.