s/o: if you're catholic, how do you deal with sticking by the church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i was raised catholic and come from a deeply religious family. but seriously - the catholic church systematically allowed priests to touch little children while simultaneously holding believers accountable to rules that aren't even in the bible. they are literally allowing priests to have sex with children while telling married women they can't use birth control. the hypocrisy of it is blinding.

and as a side note that is not nearly as horrible but still annoying - how come priests preach poverty and the pope wears prada??

so if you're still catholic, how do you deal with this? i miss my religion but i am disgusted and i can't bring myself to return.

I think you need to have a little bit of understanding as to what actually occurred and how the church is fixing the situation.

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

The Church has also taken into account the emotional stunting of their priests and are forcing them to take a year off in the real world before being Ordained. This, in my opinion, a great decision. A potential priest can go and really experience the world as an adult and make the adult decision to finalize their choice.

You should also keep in mind that when the Church had the first majorly publicized lawsuit the Church settled and gave the victim millions of dollars. It wasn't long before the lawsuits started rolling in and the Church just kept handing out millions upon millions of dollars. The Church was just handing the money out and people just started lining up. Not every claim but it really didn't matter, the Church was tarnished, and the general hatred grew amongst the public in general.

Really, take a look at the OP and many of the other posters on this board. They have no tolerance for anyone that is Catholic.

Why am I staying with the Church? Well, I didn't for a long time. I recently starting going back because I believe in most of their teachings and because I wanted to give my children a religious foundation. They can later choose what they want for themselves, as I did.

It's interesting though, after years of people leaving church, the population is on the rise. Many Episcopalians are converting. One of my priests used to be an Episcopal priest and converted a few years back. He has a wife and kids. As a matter of fact, there is an entire church in Bladensburg that is converting.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/episcopa...erts-to-catholicism/

I guess, OP, that you don't see the prejudice in your own words and accusations. You also don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the very point you are arguing. You are spreading some of the misconceptions that you believed were true and factual.

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

You must have drunk so much of their Kool-Aid that you are simply awe-inspiringly drunk with stupidity. I have unfortunately known a few children (now adults) molested by priests. Just saying you don't know anyone doesn't make a documented, outrageous and uncontested problem within the church nonexistent, and your minimizing is so sickening. And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest. The man through his own birthday parties because no one else's were ever good enough or lavish enough to suit his taste. But I get it. You HAVE to believe the crap you spew, or else how in god's name would you ever step foot inside a catholic church? So whatever, I get your internal motivations, but don't go spewing as fact your naive opinions and little microcosm world as true for all.

You, and the OP, really don't get it. Yes, bad things did happen, yes there were children molested, yes, yes, yes. Is this just a church issue? No. Has the Church changed many of it's policies? Absolutely.

You need also get that just because the media says something it's not necessarily true. I knew a bishop that was wildly misquoted by ABC news and it went viral. This Bishop was sued because of the remarks, that ABC refused to recant, and this poor man actually carried the transcript from the Bishop's confrence in his pocket. There were so many editorials (his local paper) in support of him and it was clear that he wasn't the man the media reported him to be. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the one of the bishops you referenced was this same person. It is commonly believed what he said was fact when it wasn't.

It's not the Kool-Aid that I have been drinking. I have a bit of a better understanding than most people. Not only about what actually happened but also what the world thought about pedophiles and sex offenders before the 1980's and 90's. My parents are both retired social workers and we have talked about the Church and how pedophiles and sex offenders were viewed. No one knew that this wasn't something that couldn't be cured and they believed that temptation could be removed when the child wasn't around. There wasn't much difference between an abusing priest and a "funny uncle".

I don't know if you even realize that during a good portion of the abuse there were NO child protection laws. People fault the system that's in place now but it's much better than what was in place 40 years ago. Something else you probably didn't know was that there were laws to protect animals long before there were laws to protect children. The child protection laws were actually based off the animal protection laws.

As far as the money goes. If I sued someone who molested me, and got millions, suddenly lots of other victims would crop up. Some would be actual victims and some would not. Especially when proof wasn't needed because he just kept settling and it seemed like his wealth was infinite. Which it obviously isn't.

Why the Pope wears Prada? Maybe it's last season? Someone gave them to him as a gift? He's tax exempt? He has very little overhead because his organization pays for his food and housing and he still gets a salary. Do I think the Church should spend their money a little more wisely? Absolutely. I would say the same about how the US government spends their money as well. The Prez spends his money on smokes and pie while telling Americans not to do exactly what he does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest.

You must not have grown up knowing many wealthy people if you expect us to believe a priest was one of "the wealthiest people [you] knew in high school." I'm so sick of the catholic-bashing that is condoned on these boards and in the media, pop culture, etc. I haven't seen one poster in this thread who self-identified as a practicing catholic deny the priest scandal was horrible: a terrible ordeal for those abused, the church itself, and the faithful. And even when an informed poster goes on to explain how the church is dealing with it now, the corrective actions it has taken to prevent it in the future, that's still not enough and labeled as "drinking the Kool-Aid" and "bullshit" (such thoughtful and eloquent comments, by the way). Others have explained there is a distinction between faith and the structure of the church, but that, too, is not good enough. Still others have pointed out that in the very bleak time that the priest scandal was going on (and since then) the church still was doing a lot of good in some areas - healthcare and eduction. Again, not good enough. What more do you want catholics to do?? Go spew on about your tolerance for everything else in the world except for catholics, and continue to bash catholics, our church, and our faith. You're not the first, move along.

No, I grew up in a fairly wealthy area. Private school. But most of my friends didn't have vacation homes in the Florida, just sayin. The above poster (can't tell if you're that person) acted like the abuse scandal wasn't much of a big deal because, well, gee, I didn't know any. I am quite frankly so sick of you people with your heads up your asses doing so many mental gymnastics to justify your "faith" while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it because it doesn't fit in your la la land of who priests are or it didn't hit close to YOUR home. It hit close to some of ours. It isn't some newspaper article that's titillating to read. It's real lives that were affected. Lives of people I care about, so you can quite frankly suck it if that upsets you to contemplate. And you can be as incredulous as you want about how lavish and wealthy this man's lifestyle was, it doesn't change the facts. Yeah, you drank the Kool Aid. So why don't you move along if you don't want to read it. I'll keep putting it out there because the catholic church deserves to be challenged and called out on all the bullshit.

[Anonymous]

Listen to yourself:

*pedophilia wasn't thought of the same way
*the laws were different
*lots of people seeking big damages


You are the worst kind of apologist. Since when has the Church held itself to such weak standards?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest.

You must not have grown up knowing many wealthy people if you expect us to believe a priest was one of "the wealthiest people [you] knew in high school." I'm so sick of the catholic-bashing that is condoned on these boards and in the media, pop culture, etc. I haven't seen one poster in this thread who self-identified as a practicing catholic deny the priest scandal was horrible: a terrible ordeal for those abused, the church itself, and the faithful. And even when an informed poster goes on to explain how the church is dealing with it now, the corrective actions it has taken to prevent it in the future, that's still not enough and labeled as "drinking the Kool-Aid" and "bullshit" (such thoughtful and eloquent comments, by the way). Others have explained there is a distinction between faith and the structure of the church, but that, too, is not good enough. Still others have pointed out that in the very bleak time that the priest scandal was going on (and since then) the church still was doing a lot of good in some areas - healthcare and eduction. Again, not good enough. What more do you want catholics to do?? Go spew on about your tolerance for everything else in the world except for catholics, and continue to bash catholics, our church, and our faith. You're not the first, move along.

No, I grew up in a fairly wealthy area. Private school. But most of my friends didn't have vacation homes in the Florida, just sayin. The above poster (can't tell if you're that person) acted like the abuse scandal wasn't much of a big deal because, well, gee, I didn't know any. I am quite frankly so sick of you people with your heads up your asses doing so many mental gymnastics to justify your "faith" while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it because it doesn't fit in your la la land of who priests are or it didn't hit close to YOUR home. It hit close to some of ours. It isn't some newspaper article that's titillating to read. It's real lives that were affected. Lives of people I care about, so you can quite frankly suck it if that upsets you to contemplate. And you can be as incredulous as you want about how lavish and wealthy this man's lifestyle was, it doesn't change the facts. Yeah, you drank the Kool Aid. So why don't you move along if you don't want to read it. I'll keep putting it out there because the catholic church deserves to be challenged and called out on all the bullshit.

I don't think anyone diminished it. I think you have such a knee-jerk reaction that you aren't able to listen to what other people have to say. We all have issues we treat that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i was raised catholic and come from a deeply religious family. but seriously - the catholic church systematically allowed priests to touch little children while simultaneously holding believers accountable to rules that aren't even in the bible. they are literally allowing priests to have sex with children while telling married women they can't use birth control. the hypocrisy of it is blinding.

and as a side note that is not nearly as horrible but still annoying - how come priests preach poverty and the pope wears prada??

so if you're still catholic, how do you deal with this? i miss my religion but i am disgusted and i can't bring myself to return.

I think you need to have a little bit of understanding as to what actually occurred and how the church is fixing the situation.

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

The Church has also taken into account the emotional stunting of their priests and are forcing them to take a year off in the real world before being Ordained. This, in my opinion, a great decision. A potential priest can go and really experience the world as an adult and make the adult decision to finalize their choice.

You should also keep in mind that when the Church had the first majorly publicized lawsuit the Church settled and gave the victim millions of dollars. It wasn't long before the lawsuits started rolling in and the Church just kept handing out millions upon millions of dollars. The Church was just handing the money out and people just started lining up. Not every claim but it really didn't matter, the Church was tarnished, and the general hatred grew amongst the public in general.

Really, take a look at the OP and many of the other posters on this board. They have no tolerance for anyone that is Catholic.

Why am I staying with the Church? Well, I didn't for a long time. I recently starting going back because I believe in most of their teachings and because I wanted to give my children a religious foundation. They can later choose what they want for themselves, as I did.

It's interesting though, after years of people leaving church, the population is on the rise. Many Episcopalians are converting. One of my priests used to be an Episcopal priest and converted a few years back. He has a wife and kids. As a matter of fact, there is an entire church in Bladensburg that is converting.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/episcopa...erts-to-catholicism/

I guess, OP, that you don't see the prejudice in your own words and accusations. You also don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the very point you are arguing. You are spreading some of the misconceptions that you believed were true and factual.

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

You must have drunk so much of their Kool-Aid that you are simply awe-inspiringly drunk with stupidity. I have unfortunately known a few children (now adults) molested by priests. Just saying you don't know anyone doesn't make a documented, outrageous and uncontested problem within the church nonexistent, and your minimizing is so sickening. And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest. The man through his own birthday parties because no one else's were ever good enough or lavish enough to suit his taste. But I get it. You HAVE to believe the crap you spew, or else how in god's name would you ever step foot inside a catholic church? So whatever, I get your internal motivations, but don't go spewing as fact your naive opinions and little microcosm world as true for all.

You, and the OP, really don't get it. Yes, bad things did happen, yes there were children molested, yes, yes, yes. Is this just a church issue? No. Has the Church changed many of it's policies? Absolutely.

You need also get that just because the media says something it's not necessarily true. I knew a bishop that was wildly misquoted by ABC news and it went viral. This Bishop was sued because of the remarks, that ABC refused to recant, and this poor man actually carried the transcript from the Bishop's confrence in his pocket. There were so many editorials (his local paper) in support of him and it was clear that he wasn't the man the media reported him to be. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the one of the bishops you referenced was this same person. It is commonly believed what he said was fact when it wasn't.

It's not the Kool-Aid that I have been drinking. I have a bit of a better understanding than most people. Not only about what actually happened but also what the world thought about pedophiles and sex offenders before the 1980's and 90's. My parents are both retired social workers and we have talked about the Church and how pedophiles and sex offenders were viewed. No one knew that this wasn't something that couldn't be cured and they believed that temptation could be removed when the child wasn't around. There wasn't much difference between an abusing priest and a "funny uncle".

I don't know if you even realize that during a good portion of the abuse there were NO child protection laws. People fault the system that's in place now but it's much better than what was in place 40 years ago. Something else you probably didn't know was that there were laws to protect animals long before there were laws to protect children. The child protection laws were actually based off the animal protection laws.

As far as the money goes. If I sued someone who molested me, and got millions, suddenly lots of other victims would crop up. Some would be actual victims and some would not. Especially when proof wasn't needed because he just kept settling and it seemed like his wealth was infinite. Which it obviously isn't.

Why the Pope wears Prada? Maybe it's last season? Someone gave them to him as a gift? He's tax exempt? He has very little overhead because his organization pays for his food and housing and he still gets a salary. Do I think the Church should spend their money a little more wisely? Absolutely. I would say the same about how the US government spends their money as well. The Prez spends his money on smokes and pie while telling Americans not to do exactly what he does.

To be clear, I'm referencing one family member, one my friend's brother-in-law, the priest who was head of the parish in my elementary school (documented, litigated, there is no confusion), and the priest who married a whole a circle of friends. I'm not talking about media scandals. I'm talking about real life. I don't have to "study" it or talk about it with retired social workers. I also happen to work in the child protection realm, but from the supervised visitation arena, so no, I'm not blowing smoke out of my ass. I know the history of the laws, I have a masters in social work, I have a JD, and I think you're full of crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest.

You must not have grown up knowing many wealthy people if you expect us to believe a priest was one of "the wealthiest people [you] knew in high school." I'm so sick of the catholic-bashing that is condoned on these boards and in the media, pop culture, etc. I haven't seen one poster in this thread who self-identified as a practicing catholic deny the priest scandal was horrible: a terrible ordeal for those abused, the church itself, and the faithful. And even when an informed poster goes on to explain how the church is dealing with it now, the corrective actions it has taken to prevent it in the future, that's still not enough and labeled as "drinking the Kool-Aid" and "bullshit" (such thoughtful and eloquent comments, by the way). Others have explained there is a distinction between faith and the structure of the church, but that, too, is not good enough. Still others have pointed out that in the very bleak time that the priest scandal was going on (and since then) the church still was doing a lot of good in some areas - healthcare and eduction. Again, not good enough. What more do you want catholics to do?? Go spew on about your tolerance for everything else in the world except for catholics, and continue to bash catholics, our church, and our faith. You're not the first, move along.

No, I grew up in a fairly wealthy area. Private school. But most of my friends didn't have vacation homes in the Florida, just sayin. The above poster (can't tell if you're that person) acted like the abuse scandal wasn't much of a big deal because, well, gee, I didn't know any. I am quite frankly so sick of you people with your heads up your asses doing so many mental gymnastics to justify your "faith" while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it because it doesn't fit in your la la land of who priests are or it didn't hit close to YOUR home. It hit close to some of ours. It isn't some newspaper article that's titillating to read. It's real lives that were affected. Lives of people I care about, so you can quite frankly suck it if that upsets you to contemplate. And you can be as incredulous as you want about how lavish and wealthy this man's lifestyle was, it doesn't change the facts. Yeah, you drank the Kool Aid. So why don't you move along if you don't want to read it. I'll keep putting it out there because the catholic church deserves to be challenged and called out on all the bullshit.

I don't think anyone diminished it. I think you have such a knee-jerk reaction that you aren't able to listen to what other people have to say. We all have issues we treat that way.

From the post I was actually responding to:

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

I disagree with your assessment.

[Anonymous]

while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it

This statement proves you are uninformed and unwilling to become informed about this matter. Good luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it

This statement proves you are uninformed and unwilling to become informed about this matter. Good luck to you.

Enjoy your Kool Aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i was raised catholic and come from a deeply religious family. but seriously - the catholic church systematically allowed priests to touch little children while simultaneously holding believers accountable to rules that aren't even in the bible. they are literally allowing priests to have sex with children while telling married women they can't use birth control. the hypocrisy of it is blinding.

and as a side note that is not nearly as horrible but still annoying - how come priests preach poverty and the pope wears prada??

so if you're still catholic, how do you deal with this? i miss my religion but i am disgusted and i can't bring myself to return.

I think you need to have a little bit of understanding as to what actually occurred and how the church is fixing the situation.

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

The Church has also taken into account the emotional stunting of their priests and are forcing them to take a year off in the real world before being Ordained. This, in my opinion, a great decision. A potential priest can go and really experience the world as an adult and make the adult decision to finalize their choice.

You should also keep in mind that when the Church had the first majorly publicized lawsuit the Church settled and gave the victim millions of dollars. It wasn't long before the lawsuits started rolling in and the Church just kept handing out millions upon millions of dollars. The Church was just handing the money out and people just started lining up. Not every claim but it really didn't matter, the Church was tarnished, and the general hatred grew amongst the public in general.

Really, take a look at the OP and many of the other posters on this board. They have no tolerance for anyone that is Catholic.

Why am I staying with the Church? Well, I didn't for a long time. I recently starting going back because I believe in most of their teachings and because I wanted to give my children a religious foundation. They can later choose what they want for themselves, as I did.

It's interesting though, after years of people leaving church, the population is on the rise. Many Episcopalians are converting. One of my priests used to be an Episcopal priest and converted a few years back. He has a wife and kids. As a matter of fact, there is an entire church in Bladensburg that is converting.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/episcopa...erts-to-catholicism/

I guess, OP, that you don't see the prejudice in your own words and accusations. You also don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the very point you are arguing. You are spreading some of the misconceptions that you believed were true and factual.

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

You must have drunk so much of their Kool-Aid that you are simply awe-inspiringly drunk with stupidity. I have unfortunately known a few children (now adults) molested by priests. Just saying you don't know anyone doesn't make a documented, outrageous and uncontested problem within the church nonexistent, and your minimizing is so sickening. And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest. The man through his own birthday parties because no one else's were ever good enough or lavish enough to suit his taste. But I get it. You HAVE to believe the crap you spew, or else how in god's name would you ever step foot inside a catholic church? So whatever, I get your internal motivations, but don't go spewing as fact your naive opinions and little microcosm world as true for all.

You, and the OP, really don't get it. Yes, bad things did happen, yes there were children molested, yes, yes, yes. Is this just a church issue? No. Has the Church changed many of it's policies? Absolutely.

You need also get that just because the media says something it's not necessarily true. I knew a bishop that was wildly misquoted by ABC news and it went viral. This Bishop was sued because of the remarks, that ABC refused to recant, and this poor man actually carried the transcript from the Bishop's confrence in his pocket. There were so many editorials (his local paper) in support of him and it was clear that he wasn't the man the media reported him to be. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the one of the bishops you referenced was this same person. It is commonly believed what he said was fact when it wasn't.

It's not the Kool-Aid that I have been drinking. I have a bit of a better understanding than most people. Not only about what actually happened but also what the world thought about pedophiles and sex offenders before the 1980's and 90's. My parents are both retired social workers and we have talked about the Church and how pedophiles and sex offenders were viewed. No one knew that this wasn't something that couldn't be cured and they believed that temptation could be removed when the child wasn't around. There wasn't much difference between an abusing priest and a "funny uncle".

I don't know if you even realize that during a good portion of the abuse there were NO child protection laws. People fault the system that's in place now but it's much better than what was in place 40 years ago. Something else you probably didn't know was that there were laws to protect animals long before there were laws to protect children. The child protection laws were actually based off the animal protection laws.

As far as the money goes. If I sued someone who molested me, and got millions, suddenly lots of other victims would crop up. Some would be actual victims and some would not. Especially when proof wasn't needed because he just kept settling and it seemed like his wealth was infinite. Which it obviously isn't.

Why the Pope wears Prada? Maybe it's last season? Someone gave them to him as a gift? He's tax exempt? He has very little overhead because his organization pays for his food and housing and he still gets a salary. Do I think the Church should spend their money a little more wisely? Absolutely. I would say the same about how the US government spends their money as well. The Prez spends his money on smokes and pie while telling Americans not to do exactly what he does.

To be clear, I'm referencing one family member, one my friend's brother-in-law, the priest who was head of the parish in my elementary school (documented, litigated, there is no confusion), and the priest who married a whole a circle of friends. I'm not talking about media scandals. I'm talking about real life. I don't have to "study" it or talk about it with retired social workers. I also happen to work in the child protection realm, but from the supervised visitation arena, so no, I'm not blowing smoke out of my ass. I know the history of the laws, I have a masters in social work, I have a JD, and I think you're full of crap.

You should then be well versed in the Child Welfare Act and the child protection laws of the 1970's. Given your back ground you would also know the definition of pedophilia and how it was viewed.

I have heard real life accounts as well. Never once did I deny that these things did in fact happen nor did I say that there weren't people that tried to cover it up. I said that the media (specifically ABC) misquoted a Bishop and refused to retract the story despite the fact that it wasn't true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest.

You must not have grown up knowing many wealthy people if you expect us to believe a priest was one of "the wealthiest people [you] knew in high school." I'm so sick of the catholic-bashing that is condoned on these boards and in the media, pop culture, etc. I haven't seen one poster in this thread who self-identified as a practicing catholic deny the priest scandal was horrible: a terrible ordeal for those abused, the church itself, and the faithful. And even when an informed poster goes on to explain how the church is dealing with it now, the corrective actions it has taken to prevent it in the future, that's still not enough and labeled as "drinking the Kool-Aid" and "bullshit" (such thoughtful and eloquent comments, by the way). Others have explained there is a distinction between faith and the structure of the church, but that, too, is not good enough. Still others have pointed out that in the very bleak time that the priest scandal was going on (and since then) the church still was doing a lot of good in some areas - healthcare and eduction. Again, not good enough. What more do you want catholics to do?? Go spew on about your tolerance for everything else in the world except for catholics, and continue to bash catholics, our church, and our faith. You're not the first, move along.

No, I grew up in a fairly wealthy area. Private school. But most of my friends didn't have vacation homes in the Florida, just sayin. The above poster (can't tell if you're that person) acted like the abuse scandal wasn't much of a big deal because, well, gee, I didn't know any. I am quite frankly so sick of you people with your heads up your asses doing so many mental gymnastics to justify your "faith" while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it because it doesn't fit in your la la land of who priests are or it didn't hit close to YOUR home. It hit close to some of ours. It isn't some newspaper article that's titillating to read. It's real lives that were affected. Lives of people I care about, so you can quite frankly suck it if that upsets you to contemplate. And you can be as incredulous as you want about how lavish and wealthy this man's lifestyle was, it doesn't change the facts. Yeah, you drank the Kool Aid. So why don't you move along if you don't want to read it. I'll keep putting it out there because the catholic church deserves to be challenged and called out on all the bullshit.

I don't think anyone diminished it. I think you have such a knee-jerk reaction that you aren't able to listen to what other people have to say. We all have issues we treat that way.

From the post I was actually responding to:

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

I disagree with your assessment.

You can't disagree with it because you don't know them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i was raised catholic and come from a deeply religious family. but seriously - the catholic church systematically allowed priests to touch little children while simultaneously holding believers accountable to rules that aren't even in the bible. they are literally allowing priests to have sex with children while telling married women they can't use birth control. the hypocrisy of it is blinding.

and as a side note that is not nearly as horrible but still annoying - how come priests preach poverty and the pope wears prada??

so if you're still catholic, how do you deal with this? i miss my religion but i am disgusted and i can't bring myself to return.

I think you need to have a little bit of understanding as to what actually occurred and how the church is fixing the situation.

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

The Church has also taken into account the emotional stunting of their priests and are forcing them to take a year off in the real world before being Ordained. This, in my opinion, a great decision. A potential priest can go and really experience the world as an adult and make the adult decision to finalize their choice.

You should also keep in mind that when the Church had the first majorly publicized lawsuit the Church settled and gave the victim millions of dollars. It wasn't long before the lawsuits started rolling in and the Church just kept handing out millions upon millions of dollars. The Church was just handing the money out and people just started lining up. Not every claim but it really didn't matter, the Church was tarnished, and the general hatred grew amongst the public in general.

Really, take a look at the OP and many of the other posters on this board. They have no tolerance for anyone that is Catholic.

Why am I staying with the Church? Well, I didn't for a long time. I recently starting going back because I believe in most of their teachings and because I wanted to give my children a religious foundation. They can later choose what they want for themselves, as I did.

It's interesting though, after years of people leaving church, the population is on the rise. Many Episcopalians are converting. One of my priests used to be an Episcopal priest and converted a few years back. He has a wife and kids. As a matter of fact, there is an entire church in Bladensburg that is converting.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/episcopa...erts-to-catholicism/

I guess, OP, that you don't see the prejudice in your own words and accusations. You also don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the very point you are arguing. You are spreading some of the misconceptions that you believed were true and factual.

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

You must have drunk so much of their Kool-Aid that you are simply awe-inspiringly drunk with stupidity. I have unfortunately known a few children (now adults) molested by priests. Just saying you don't know anyone doesn't make a documented, outrageous and uncontested problem within the church nonexistent, and your minimizing is so sickening. And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest. The man through his own birthday parties because no one else's were ever good enough or lavish enough to suit his taste. But I get it. You HAVE to believe the crap you spew, or else how in god's name would you ever step foot inside a catholic church? So whatever, I get your internal motivations, but don't go spewing as fact your naive opinions and little microcosm world as true for all.

You, and the OP, really don't get it. Yes, bad things did happen, yes there were children molested, yes, yes, yes. Is this just a church issue? No. Has the Church changed many of it's policies? Absolutely.

You need also get that just because the media says something it's not necessarily true. I knew a bishop that was wildly misquoted by ABC news and it went viral. This Bishop was sued because of the remarks, that ABC refused to recant, and this poor man actually carried the transcript from the Bishop's confrence in his pocket. There were so many editorials (his local paper) in support of him and it was clear that he wasn't the man the media reported him to be. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the one of the bishops you referenced was this same person. It is commonly believed what he said was fact when it wasn't.

It's not the Kool-Aid that I have been drinking. I have a bit of a better understanding than most people. Not only about what actually happened but also what the world thought about pedophiles and sex offenders before the 1980's and 90's. My parents are both retired social workers and we have talked about the Church and how pedophiles and sex offenders were viewed. No one knew that this wasn't something that couldn't be cured and they believed that temptation could be removed when the child wasn't around. There wasn't much difference between an abusing priest and a "funny uncle".

I don't know if you even realize that during a good portion of the abuse there were NO child protection laws. People fault the system that's in place now but it's much better than what was in place 40 years ago. Something else you probably didn't know was that there were laws to protect animals long before there were laws to protect children. The child protection laws were actually based off the animal protection laws.

As far as the money goes. If I sued someone who molested me, and got millions, suddenly lots of other victims would crop up. Some would be actual victims and some would not. Especially when proof wasn't needed because he just kept settling and it seemed like his wealth was infinite. Which it obviously isn't.

Why the Pope wears Prada? Maybe it's last season? Someone gave them to him as a gift? He's tax exempt? He has very little overhead because his organization pays for his food and housing and he still gets a salary. Do I think the Church should spend their money a little more wisely? Absolutely. I would say the same about how the US government spends their money as well. The Prez spends his money on smokes and pie while telling Americans not to do exactly what he does.

To be clear, I'm referencing one family member, one my friend's brother-in-law, the priest who was head of the parish in my elementary school (documented, litigated, there is no confusion), and the priest who married a whole a circle of friends. I'm not talking about media scandals. I'm talking about real life. I don't have to "study" it or talk about it with retired social workers. I also happen to work in the child protection realm, but from the supervised visitation arena, so no, I'm not blowing smoke out of my ass. I know the history of the laws, I have a masters in social work, I have a JD, and I think you're full of crap.

You should then be well versed in the Child Welfare Act and the child protection laws of the 1970's. Given your back ground you would also know the definition of pedophilia and how it was viewed.

I have heard real life accounts as well. Never once did I deny that these things did in fact happen nor did I say that there weren't people that tried to cover it up. I said that the media (specifically ABC) misquoted a Bishop and refused to retract the story despite the fact that it wasn't true.

This isn't a United States issue. It's a catholic church issue, so the Child Welfare Act is only minimally relevant. And who cares that the media covered up one case you know of when it's undisputed that there was mass coverup? You're going to point to one case where a priest was falsely accused and act like, yeah, that's the same. Look, you give a crap about the church, and I think they're disgusting. End of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And one of the wealthiest people I knew in high school was my best friend's uncle who was, you got it, a priest.

You must not have grown up knowing many wealthy people if you expect us to believe a priest was one of "the wealthiest people [you] knew in high school." I'm so sick of the catholic-bashing that is condoned on these boards and in the media, pop culture, etc. I haven't seen one poster in this thread who self-identified as a practicing catholic deny the priest scandal was horrible: a terrible ordeal for those abused, the church itself, and the faithful. And even when an informed poster goes on to explain how the church is dealing with it now, the corrective actions it has taken to prevent it in the future, that's still not enough and labeled as "drinking the Kool-Aid" and "bullshit" (such thoughtful and eloquent comments, by the way). Others have explained there is a distinction between faith and the structure of the church, but that, too, is not good enough. Still others have pointed out that in the very bleak time that the priest scandal was going on (and since then) the church still was doing a lot of good in some areas - healthcare and eduction. Again, not good enough. What more do you want catholics to do?? Go spew on about your tolerance for everything else in the world except for catholics, and continue to bash catholics, our church, and our faith. You're not the first, move along.

No, I grew up in a fairly wealthy area. Private school. But most of my friends didn't have vacation homes in the Florida, just sayin. The above poster (can't tell if you're that person) acted like the abuse scandal wasn't much of a big deal because, well, gee, I didn't know any. I am quite frankly so sick of you people with your heads up your asses doing so many mental gymnastics to justify your "faith" while ignoring some true suffering or minimizing it because it doesn't fit in your la la land of who priests are or it didn't hit close to YOUR home. It hit close to some of ours. It isn't some newspaper article that's titillating to read. It's real lives that were affected. Lives of people I care about, so you can quite frankly suck it if that upsets you to contemplate. And you can be as incredulous as you want about how lavish and wealthy this man's lifestyle was, it doesn't change the facts. Yeah, you drank the Kool Aid. So why don't you move along if you don't want to read it. I'll keep putting it out there because the catholic church deserves to be challenged and called out on all the bullshit.

I don't think anyone diminished it. I think you have such a knee-jerk reaction that you aren't able to listen to what other people have to say. We all have issues we treat that way.

From the post I was actually responding to:

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

I disagree with your assessment.

You can't disagree with it because you don't know them.

Know who? I disagreed with the assessment that "anyone diminished" the prevalence of abuse. I quoted the exact passage I was referring to when making that statement. Who the hell are you talking about?

[Anonymous]

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

I have a bit of a better understanding than most people. Not only about what actually happened but also what the world thought about pedophiles and sex offenders before the 1980's and 90's. My parents are both retired social workers and we have talked about the Church and how pedophiles and sex offenders were viewed. No one knew that this wasn't something that couldn't be cured and they believed that temptation could be removed when the child wasn't around. There wasn't much difference between an abusing priest and a "funny uncle".

These comments basically sound like you're saying that it was a different time, so the views on pedophilia were different. I am having trouble reconciling that morally relativistic standard with the argument on the original religion thread about how God is necessary to provide standards of moral absolutism. Seems completely inconsistent to me. If the church stands for moral absolutism, why the shifting standards on pedophilia?

[Anonymous]

This isn't a United States issue. It's a catholic church issue, so the Child Welfare Act is only minimally relevant. And who cares that the media covered up one case you know of when it's undisputed that there was mass coverup? You're going to point to one case where a priest was falsely accused and act like, yeah, that's the same. Look, you give a crap about the church, and I think they're disgusting. End of story.

No, it's not a only a US issue but most of the priests we, as citizens of the US, are talking about are from the US. The priest I knew that was misquoted was accused of a large scale cover up and that wasn't the case. I choose not to name names because there are still many websites out there using the misquotes as factual.

You don't have to like the Church. Fine. I get it. I can actually see what would motivate you to leave. I left for about 10 years myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

I have a bit of a better understanding than most people. Not only about what actually happened but also what the world thought about pedophiles and sex offenders before the 1980's and 90's. My parents are both retired social workers and we have talked about the Church and how pedophiles and sex offenders were viewed. No one knew that this wasn't something that couldn't be cured and they believed that temptation could be removed when the child wasn't around. There wasn't much difference between an abusing priest and a "funny uncle".

These comments basically sound like you're saying that it was a different time, so the views on pedophilia were different. I am having trouble reconciling that morally relativistic standard with the argument on the original religion thread about how God is necessary to provide standards of moral absolutism. Seems completely inconsistent to me. If the church stands for moral absolutism, why the shifting standards on pedophilia?

Moral lapse and all it was still thought to be curable.