law school question

[Anonymous]

8:19 here. Meant to add that the median salary for a non-top 100 graduate is around 60-65k. Not enough to pay back those loans with anything left over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we please refrain from calling non-1st- and -2nd tier law schools TURD schools?!?!? Some of us turds have done very well for ourselves and GASP!!! might actually be good lawyers.

Not all third-tier schools are TTTs, TTTs are the third-tiers that charge the same as first tiers, have ridiculous false employment statistics that lure in students who are blinded by promises of big bucks, don't prepare them well for the bar, and spit them out into a saturated market with no support and a dubious ability to find employment. They are a false promise with nothing behind them.

There are decent third tier schools, but it's much harder these days to find them (since it seems every school takes ABA accreditation as a signal to charge $40-$50K/yr, regardless of quality!). Many people who went to third tiers and have good jobs now faced a completely different situation when they were in school and entering the labor market. My BIL went to a third tier and got a job immediately...when he graduated 9 years ago. He's a good attorney, too, but his debt was less than $20K total, and he went to third-tier because it was close and inexpensive, and at that time, you could still pretty easily get a job with a law degree from anywhere.

It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

[Anonymous]

LSAT instructor checking back in here. 150ish is not going to get him into any top-tier schools. You'd have to have OSI (daddy built the school a new library) and be a lucky little leprechaun to get in with that.

Yes, it used to be different, but I guarantee you it's not anymore.

To give you an idea of how crazy things are now...years ago some people hit on the idea of taking the test untimed by getting diagnosed as ADHD, etc from their doctors. Schools caught on, and now they pretty much do not give out untimed waivers unless you prove you're really disabled (unlike every other standardized test, where it's easy to get a waiver), which is very burdensome for actually disabled students, all because of the intense competition and cheating to get good scores. Not to mention the illegal ritalin use that's absolutely rampant so people can game their scores up.

Law schools pretty much only care about LSATs. It's not like getting into college. It's just a bad situation, but the long and short is middling scores don't do anything for you anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

Isn't GW 1st Tier? It's not Top Ten, but I'm pretty sure it's still 1st Tier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

Isn't GW 1st Tier? It's not Top Ten, but I'm pretty sure it's still 1st Tier.

Yes, GW is first tier, I think it's even in the 20's. Mason is also first tier but in the 40's I think.

[Anonymous]

So glad I graduated from law school at a time when my total loan burden was 1/3 of my first year associate's salary. I'm thanking my lucky stars

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

Isn't GW 1st Tier? It's not Top Ten, but I'm pretty sure it's still 1st Tier.

Yes, GW is first tier, I think it's even in the 20's. Mason is also first tier but in the 40's I think.

Mason and Maryland are "first tier" only according to US News. GW is better, but still not "first tier" as I understand the term. I went to one of those lower-tier first tier schools, and really means nothing. If you are not at a top 20 school, might as well have gone to Univ of Baltimore (no offense meant, that is actually a darned good law school if you want to learn something).

[Anonymous]

My wife went to Mason and it took her a year to find a decent job. The main drawback is that it's a relatively new school with a small alum base.

However, they also offer in-state tuition, so we didn't end up with any debt. Not a terrible deal.

[Anonymous]

I'm an attorney who really loves her career but for most people I'd advise against going to law school. The plus your relative has is that he works in the legal field (so he's not completely oblivious) and is still interested, and seems to know which field he wants to work in. The downsides are multiple. First, if he's really applying to first tier schools, he's wasting the application money. Second, if he somehow manages to get in, it may not be a favor to him. Things are bad out there and I agree with the PPs that if you graduated 10 or more years ago, even 5 years ago, you don't understand. Of course some of it is cyclical and will get better but part of it is that there are too many people going to law school, too much supply, and the debt loads are just too significant. There was a good article in the last few months published in the monthly ABA magazine about this. There are plenty of laywers from decent law schools who did decently who cannot find legal jobs. One concern about your relative is that based on where he's applying given his credentials, he already seems out of touch. Does he have a very specific plan? Is he qualified to work in the field he's identified?

[Anonymous]

Can we please refrain from calling non-1st- and -2nd tier law schools TURD schools?!?!? Some of us turds have done very well for ourselves and GASP!!! might actually be good lawyers.

Not all third-tier schools are TTTs, TTTs are the third-tiers that charge the same as first tiers, have ridiculous false employment statistics that lure in students who are blinded by promises of big bucks, don't prepare them well for the bar, and spit them out into a saturated market with no support and a dubious ability to find employment. They are a false promise with nothing behind them.

There are decent third tier schools, but it's much harder these days to find them (since it seems every school takes ABA accreditation as a signal to charge $40-$50K/yr, regardless of quality!). Many people who went to third tiers and have good jobs now faced a completely different situation when they were in school and entering the labor market. My BIL went to a third tier and got a job immediately...when he graduated 9 years ago. He's a good attorney, too, but his debt was less than $20K total, and he went to third-tier because it was close and inexpensive, and at that time, you could still pretty easily get a job with a law degree from anywhere.

It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

Thanks for clarifying that. I had never heard the term "third tier turd" and yeah my feathers were ruffled but you explained it beautifully. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Can we please refrain from calling non-1st- and -2nd tier law schools TURD schools?!?!? Some of us turds have done very well for ourselves and GASP!!! might actually be good lawyers.

Not all third-tier schools are TTTs, TTTs are the third-tiers that charge the same as first tiers, have ridiculous false employment statistics that lure in students who are blinded by promises of big bucks, don't prepare them well for the bar, and spit them out into a saturated market with no support and a dubious ability to find employment. They are a false promise with nothing behind them.

There are decent third tier schools, but it's much harder these days to find them (since it seems every school takes ABA accreditation as a signal to charge $40-$50K/yr, regardless of quality!). Many people who went to third tiers and have good jobs now faced a completely different situation when they were in school and entering the labor market. My BIL went to a third tier and got a job immediately...when he graduated 9 years ago. He's a good attorney, too, but his debt was less than $20K total, and he went to third-tier because it was close and inexpensive, and at that time, you could still pretty easily get a job with a law degree from anywhere.

It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

Thanks for clarifying that. I had never heard the term "third tier turd" and yeah my feathers were ruffled but you explained it beautifully. Thanks.

Sure thing! I have no problem with third tiers at all, and in some cases they are the best bet, even in this crappy job climate. But TTTs must be stopped

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


It's damn hard to get a good job after going to a 2nd tier now (I know someone who's whip smart who graduated from GW with $150K in debt and had to take a $40K job because she couldn't find anything else for a whole freaking year).

I also have friends who went to 1st tiers and did ok (top half of class) and they have to take jobs with the law school for $15/hr because there's nothing else (the 1st tiers hire them to keep their employment stats high).

Isn't GW 1st Tier? It's not Top Ten, but I'm pretty sure it's still 1st Tier.

Yes, GW is first tier, I think it's even in the 20's. Mason is also first tier but in the 40's I think.

Mason and Maryland are "first tier" only according to US News. GW is better, but still not "first tier" as I understand the term. I went to one of those lower-tier first tier schools, and really means nothing. If you are not at a top 20 school, might as well have gone to Univ of Baltimore (no offense meant, that is actually a darned good law school if you want to learn something).

"First tier" is considered to be the top 50 law schools. Most people in the legal community use the U.S. News & World Report rankings to make this distinction. It may be fairly meaningless at this point because there is such a big difference between say, #1 and #50, but the term "first tier" still applies.

It's all a continuum anyway, and there are many factors that come into play. Yes, someone at a top-5 or top-10 school is probably in good shape job-wise, but it's not like someone at school #10 is automatically better off than someone at school #11 or 12. For example, G.W. is currently #20, but it has a well-known national name and a strong active alumni network with lots of grads in big firms and prestigious positions. If you're hoping to find a job in DC or New York, you're way better off at G.W. than at UCLA, USC, or University of Texas, even though they are higher ranked. And you're certainly way better off than if you went to University of Baltimore, which (while no doubt a good school) sends very few grads to biglaw or other regions.

[Anonymous]

Bottom line IMO is that in the current environment, taking out six figures in loans is a very bad idea at almost any school and could be catastrophic at a low ranked school.

FTR I am a graduate of a school in the basement of the 1st tier. I went there bc I had a large scholarship - which was a good thing bc I graduated in the middle of my class and had NO prospects. AND I have some very specialized skills, great undergrad degree, references, etc. Oh, and this was back in the "glory days" of 2005. I would not advise anyone to attend a 2nd or third tier school unless they had special circumstances, like a full ride or a guaranteed job, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm an attorney who really loves her career but for most people I'd advise against going to law school. The plus your relative has is that he works in the legal field (so he's not completely oblivious) and is still interested, and seems to know which field he wants to work in. The downsides are multiple. First, if he's really applying to first tier schools, he's wasting the application money. Second, if he somehow manages to get in, it may not be a favor to him. Things are bad out there and I agree with the PPs that if you graduated 10 or more years ago, even 5 years ago, you don't understand. Of course some of it is cyclical and will get better but part of it is that there are too many people going to law school, too much supply, and the debt loads are just too significant. There was a good article in the last few months published in the monthly ABA magazine about this. There are plenty of laywers from decent law schools who did decently who cannot find legal jobs. One concern about your relative is that based on where he's applying given his credentials, he already seems out of touch. Does he have a very specific plan? Is he qualified to work in the field he's identified?

OP here again, the answer to the bolded is No and No. He thinks he will just move to the city where his targeted industry is big and go from there I suppose. It's really not an industry that does on-campus interviews -- I'm thinking you start from the bottom making close to nothing and work your way up (unless your dad is some bigwig). And you're right, he is out of touch, but I'm willing to humor him for now with these applications. I just fear what his next move will be if/when he gets rejected from these top schools. He is too old for this shit. Sorry to vent

[Anonymous]

I don't recall from the posts if your relative is in D.C. or not, but D.C. has a tendency to want "get rich quick" schemes (call it what you may) and he may have fallen prey to that. Hence all the lawyers. Maybe he would be better off in another area, one with realistic perspective?