law school question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which law schools are de rigueur for entry into biglaw? Just curious.

1st or 2nd tier is usually the limit (and with 2nd tier, it's harder).

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He should only apply to first or second tier schools. Yeah, it sounds like he won't get in, but any school ranked lower than that is just a waste of money.

This, and all the previous posts. If he only applies to top schools, he probably won't get in - and that may be the luckiest thing that happens to him. I hesitate to say this (I can feel the flames now) but if he has low LAST scores and grades, he probably won't do too well in law school anyway. Third tier (or, to a lesser extent, first and second tiers) + bad grades = no job and lots of debt. Not good.

As a PP suggested, the best thing you can do for him is convince him (or try to, anyway) to be realistic, and to push an evening program that he pays for out of pocket. It'll take longer, but not having debt is of the utmost importance if he's not going to be pulling in six figures when he graduates (and he won't).

I agree with this, too; if anything, it is understated. Based on the facts as you describe them, going to law school is going to be a catastrophe for him. Attending a low-ranked law school is a recipe for: high debt, low salary, and horrible work, if he can even find a job.

[Anonymous]

Lawyers are NOT the big swinging dicks on the payscale that they once were in 90's. I can't even tell you the # of women I know who have left the field after paying upwards of 100-200k for top 10 law school degrees and licenses. I went to a top tier law school and I continue on, but at part time. And I find my work soul and spirit-crushing.

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to speak up and say that there ARE jobs out there for new grads (I graduated less than a year ago) who did not go to Tier 1 or Tier 2 schools...I am walking proof! I have a great job that pays well and I actually {gasp!} like what I am doing. If your family member WANTS to be an attorney, support him! If he is doing it because he doesn't know what else to do...speak up before he accrues debt and then has to work at a job he hates to pay it off. If it is his dream- he will be fine...debt or no debt.

[Anonymous]

This might be the first time lawyers are telling the truth

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This might be the first time lawyers are telling the truth

BOO! There are so many more scammy people out there than lawyers (real estate agents are my personal least favorite people). You're not funny, PP, and that's the biggest insult of all.

[Anonymous]

My BIL went to Cooley and will never be out of debt. FIL is constantly helping him out and encouraging us to do the same. He never should have gone to law school. It took a long time for him to find a job (not just because of his school, the guy has a lot of issues) and DH had to light a fire under his butt to get him to take the bar in a state with a high pass rate and apply for jobs where he actually had a chance of getting hired. The guy was delusional, I think he thought he'd graduate and start making big bucks. Instead he's a state employee in BFE New Mexico.

[Anonymous]

Maybe you could also ask about why he wants to go to law school and what he wants to do, interests, etc. Maybe being a paralegal would be a good option. Law is not my passion but for various practical reasons I temped in big law firms during college summers and worked for a year between college and grad school as a legal assistant in a very small firm. The work is interesting, the pay is good, and the investment, in terms of both time and money, is much lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just wanted to speak up and say that there ARE jobs out there for new grads (I graduated less than a year ago) who did not go to Tier 1 or Tier 2 schools...I am walking proof! I have a great job that pays well and I actually {gasp!} like what I am doing. If your family member WANTS to be an attorney, support him! If he is doing it because he doesn't know what else to do...speak up before he accrues debt and then has to work at a job he hates to pay it off. If it is his dream- he will be fine...debt or no debt.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The fact remains, this is one of the worst markets for lawyers in YEARS. Do some people get jobs? Of course. Is it a lot more uncertain than in prior years? Definitely.

The bolded statement is one of the most naive - and absurd - things I've read in a long time.

"Debt? Who cares? Never mind that hundreds of thousands of people's lives have been ruined in the past few years because of ill-advised debt! It's his dream!"

First year lawyers should possess more critical thinking skills than you demonstrate with that little nugget.

[Anonymous]

I went to a no name law school and have been a lawyer for 10+ years. I could not get a job at BigLaw, but I knew I did not want to work at BigLaw. I went to work for a regional firm, made a few lateral moves, and am now on my own and loving it. I did not start out in the 6 figures, but I have been making good money for 5+ years. Now I work 40ish hours per week -- more if I have a trial and less if it is quiet around the courthouses. For the most part I control my schedule so I have all the flexibility I need. When I graduated from school no one wanted to hire me either, but I found a good job as did all of my classmates who wanted to work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a no name law school and have been a lawyer for 10+ years. I could not get a job at BigLaw, but I knew I did not want to work at BigLaw. I went to work for a regional firm, made a few lateral moves, and am now on my own and loving it. I did not start out in the 6 figures, but I have been making good money for 5+ years. Now I work 40ish hours per week -- more if I have a trial and less if it is quiet around the courthouses. For the most part I control my schedule so I have all the flexibility I need. When I graduated from school no one wanted to hire me either, but I found a good job as did all of my classmates who wanted to work.

somewhat similar. I started out in small firms, turned a ll.m. into a big law run of ten years (but knew it wasnt for me but liked the money and wasn't going to leave until they asked me). They finally asked me last year, and since then I've been at a regional firm which I like a lot better but the money is not that great. Hopefully in a few years I will have enough of my own clients to go on my own. bill 80-100 hours a month and make $200K or so after expenses. That is my dream.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a no name law school and have been a lawyer for 10+ years. I could not get a job at BigLaw, but I knew I did not want to work at BigLaw. I went to work for a regional firm, made a few lateral moves, and am now on my own and loving it. I did not start out in the 6 figures, but I have been making good money for 5+ years. Now I work 40ish hours per week -- more if I have a trial and less if it is quiet around the courthouses. For the most part I control my schedule so I have all the flexibility I need. When I graduated from school no one wanted to hire me either, but I found a good job as did all of my classmates who wanted to work.

If you've been a lawyer for 10+ years, you graduated into a different economy than the one we're in now. Also, what was your total debt when you graduated? That is a huge factor. If someone can finance law school themselves with either savings, salary (night school) or scholarships, they have a far greater chance of achieving the kind of career satisfaction you describe.

OP, I wouldn't crap on your relative's dream at this point. I would encourage him to apply ONLY to schools in the top two tiers. If he is accepted -- something that is far from certain unless he strays into the third tier -- I would strongly suggest he reach out to recent alumni and third years at the school to talk with them about their experience finding jobs. He needs to hear the truth from the mouths of people who have been there. You can give him all the articles you want, but they will likely be about graduates from other (albeit similar) law schools and they will feel abstract. I think it would be more relevant and powerful for him to talk with real people from/at that school in particular.

Again, not to be negative, but I think the point will likely be moot if he sticks to the top two tiers of schools, as he should. Low LSATs and a non-traditional background will make it tough for him. Under NO circumstances should he go to a third-tier law school. In this economy, those shcools are one-way tickets to huge debt and very frustrating job searches. He'd be better served investing in a different career!

[Anonymous]

OP, please don't listen to anyone who graduated 10 years ago. Though they are well-intentioned, the whole situation is COMPLETELY different now. Really, in the last 3 years, things have completely gone to hell for most law school grads. Even 5 years ago, you could graduate without the strongest credentials and get a decent job. Now even folks from great schools who did law review, etc are scrounging. That means "safe" jobs like gov't/prosecution positions are being snapped up (both by recent grads and by laid-off lawyers with years of experience).

Tell your relative to get a job as a paralegal, like a PP mentioned. He'll get the idea of what he's in for (I doubt he knows, he doesn't seem to be very well-researched if he thinks he's getting into 1st tier schools with his background). And, he might have an in if he does pursue a law degree, as he'll have a relationship with a firm who may employ him (or provide a reference for when he's looking).

He should NOT go to school, unless he wants to compete for the scraps the economic fallout left behind.

[Anonymous]

Excuse my ignorance, non-lawyer here thinking about taking the LSAT. What is a low LSAT score? Below 150?

[Anonymous]

If you really are serious OP -- it is highly doubtful he can get into any law school much less tier 1 or 2. I graduated Phi Beta Kappa from a great university, but didn't do too well on the LSATs and went to tier 3 law. I happened to get a great job because I was the law review editor and already had great lobbying experience before I went.