law school question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Excuse my ignorance, non-lawyer here thinking about taking the LSAT. What is a low LSAT score? Below 150?

150 is the average, so yes, anything below that would be low.

However, you won't probably get into a top-tier school with anything below about a 165 (plus a great background or story). I took a class and it was the best thing I ever did, but even that can only help you so much if you're not a natural test-taker.

[Anonymous]

In this economy, only Yale and Stanford are completely safe. Even people at Harvard are striking out at OCI. About ~70% get biglaw jobs through OCI(on-campus-interviews, the main funnel into high-paying firms that is very difficult, if not impossible to obtain in any other fashion) at Columbia, UChicago, NYU (next tier), and 50% at places like UVa, UMichigan, Duke, etc. It gets worse the lower you do down the tiers.

[Anonymous]

OP again, thanks again all -- including those of you who are success stories. For those who asked, relative scored in the 150's on the lsats which I guess isn't that low after all, but seems too low to get into someplace like Duke. Also, he currently works as a paralegal and that hasn't deterred him from the profession. He's interested in a specific industry which I don't know much about, but appears like it's all about connections....Maybe if he was 25 I wouldn't be as worried, but I don't want to see him have to put his life on hold when he's 35 and fresh out of law school with 6 figure loans.

[Anonymous]

Bigaw from big name law school here. Agree with what everyone has said, but I wonder where your relative wants to live? It occurs to me that there are parts of the country in which people from top law schools rarely want to live and work. I won't name any, because someone is bound to be offended, but let's say they are not DC, NY, Calif, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. The rest of the country needs laywers, too. I'm not sure, but I'll bet that the lawyers in these other places usually go to the in-state schools. Maybe a person with less stellar or nontraditional credentials could attend a local law school in one of these areas and still find a job and have a meaningful career? I would ask about job placement statistics before accepting admission at such a school, of course.

[Anonymous]

This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations, OP. Two years ago, my brother was approaching 30, bored with his job and came up with the idea to go to law school. This was after the market had already begun to slow and I tried to gently tell him how this was a risky decision. He got upset so I just backed off. Now fast forward 2 years and he's 5 months from graduating from a lower ranked school with no job offers, a pregnant girlfriend and scared to death about how he will support his family and pay off these loans. If no one had said anything to him, I'm sure he'd be complaining that no one warned him.

I hope everything works out.

[Anonymous]

LSATs are a pretty good indicator of how well someone will do in law school. Don't let him ruin his future. He's freakin' 31 and will be 34 when he graduates - a dinosaur for a first year associate. You should be a partner by that age. Why does everyone want to be a lawyer anyway? I think they need to raise the bar when it comes to admissions. Make the hurdle at the beginning and not after you've wasted three years of your life and borrowed $100k+. The ABA should be fined; they suck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just wanted to speak up and say that there ARE jobs out there for new grads (I graduated less than a year ago) who did not go to Tier 1 or Tier 2 schools...I am walking proof! I have a great job that pays well and I actually {gasp!} like what I am doing. If your family member WANTS to be an attorney, support him! If he is doing it because he doesn't know what else to do...speak up before he accrues debt and then has to work at a job he hates to pay it off. If it is his dream- he will be fine...debt or no debt.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The fact remains, this is one of the worst markets for lawyers in YEARS. Do some people get jobs? Of course. Is it a lot more uncertain than in prior years? Definitely.

The bolded statement is one of the most naive - and absurd - things I've read in a long time.

"Debt? Who cares? Never mind that hundreds of thousands of people's lives have been ruined in the past few years because of ill-advised debt! It's his dream!"

First year lawyers should possess more critical thinking skills than you demonstrate with that little nugget.

Such a typical attorney...no heart. I WANTED to be an attorney, did you? This is a second career for me (nursing prior). The friends I have from school also desperately wanted to be lawyers and none of us regret the debt. Of course, I was also responsible about student loans and most law students are not. Debt does not define me...and my 100K in student loans will be paid off in full within 4 years. The point I was trying to make was that the OP's family member will be okay if this is what he really wants. Big law isn't the only law out there...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just wanted to speak up and say that there ARE jobs out there for new grads (I graduated less than a year ago) who did not go to Tier 1 or Tier 2 schools...I am walking proof! I have a great job that pays well and I actually {gasp!} like what I am doing. If your family member WANTS to be an attorney, support him! If he is doing it because he doesn't know what else to do...speak up before he accrues debt and then has to work at a job he hates to pay it off. If it is his dream- he will be fine...debt or no debt.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The fact remains, this is one of the worst markets for lawyers in YEARS. Do some people get jobs? Of course. Is it a lot more uncertain than in prior years? Definitely.

The bolded statement is one of the most naive - and absurd - things I've read in a long time.

"Debt? Who cares? Never mind that hundreds of thousands of people's lives have been ruined in the past few years because of ill-advised debt! It's his dream!"

First year lawyers should possess more critical thinking skills than you demonstrate with that little nugget.

Such a typical attorney...no heart. I WANTED to be an attorney, did you? This is a second career for me (nursing prior). The friends I have from school also desperately wanted to be lawyers and none of us regret the debt. Of course, I was also responsible about student loans and most law students are not. Debt does not define me...and my 100K in student loans will be paid off in full within 4 years. The point I was trying to make was that the OP's family member will be okay if this is what he really wants. Big law isn't the only law out there...

key thing for anyone considering law school is to make an informed mature decision. give the person the facts. let them know the odds. then they can have no regrets. personally i did the exact opposite: had 96%tile LSATS but zero maturity and had no idea what I was getting into. basically i was a history major who needed something to do after college graduation. three years later spent partying and not taking school seriously, i had crappy grades and zero job offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which law schools are de rigueur for entry into biglaw? Just curious.

1st or 2nd tier is usually the limit (and with 2nd tier, it's harder).

"First tier" is the top 50 schools--that's a huge range. If you go to a top 10 school you have a good shot at biglaw with decent grades. If you went to a school in the 11-25 ranking range, you can still get a biglaw job with top grades, journal experience, and luck. Any grad from a school below the top 30 (even though technically in the "top tier") should not expect to be in the running for biglaw jobs, although it may occasionally happen. Second tier school, you don't have a prayer.

[Anonymous]

I finished my schooling (not law) at 35.

Sometimes, you don't figure out your life path at 22.

He isn't too old to be going to school, but he is way too old to take on massive amounts of debt. If he knows what he wants, which he may as a paralegal, there's no reason not to go... To an in-state, or part-time program with a reasonable local reputation. It is never worth big debt from a third tier school - ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:LSATs are a pretty good indicator of how well someone will do in law school. Don't let him ruin his future. He's freakin' 31 and will be 34 when he graduates - a dinosaur for a first year associate. You should be a partner by that age. Why does everyone want to be a lawyer anyway? I think they need to raise the bar when it comes to admissions. Make the hurdle at the beginning and not after you've wasted three years of your life and borrowed $100k+. The ABA should be fined; they suck.

Baloney! I didn't do that well on the LSATs (76th percentile -- it was a different scale then. I think the highest was a 43 and I got a 36 or something). I graduated summa cum laude from a sold (not top tier school), clerked, worked at a Biglaw DC firm and now work at DOJ. LSATs are NOT necessarily a predictor of how you will do in law school or what type of lawyer you'll be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LSATs are a pretty good indicator of how well someone will do in law school. Don't let him ruin his future. He's freakin' 31 and will be 34 when he graduates - a dinosaur for a first year associate. You should be a partner by that age. Why does everyone want to be a lawyer anyway? I think they need to raise the bar when it comes to admissions. Make the hurdle at the beginning and not after you've wasted three years of your life and borrowed $100k+. The ABA should be fined; they suck.

Baloney! I didn't do that well on the LSATs (76th percentile -- it was a different scale then. I think the highest was a 43 and I got a 36 or something). I graduated summa cum laude from a sold (not top tier school), clerked, worked at a Biglaw DC firm and now work at DOJ. LSATs are NOT necessarily a predictor of how you will do in law school or what type of lawyer you'll be.

There are exceptions to every rule, which doesn't make the rule untrue. I actually think the LSAT tested many of the skills I needed in law school and use everyday as a lawyer. Reading comprehension is extremely important, and as ridiculous as those logic games seemed at the time, they actually required the same type of reasoning needed to build a persuasive legal argument.

[Anonymous]

I'd set him straight. You don't have to do it all yourself- just try to show him the articles and say, "have you seen these?"

There are just too many people in an unfortunate situation right now with $100k+ in non-dischargeable student debt, and no job prospects.

My worst story on law school applicants, lately? I tried to talk a good friend's younger brother out of going to law school. Both of us (my friend and I) are attorneys who have done reasonably well. But we graduated a few years ago, both of us with relatively low federal loans. My friend's brother decided he wanted to go to a first-tier school (but not top 20) for a grand total of over $160K in student loans.

He insisted that he would get a federal government job, and the Obama student loan repayment/forgiveness programs would cap the amount he pays on his student loans, with the rest forgiven after 10 years. We both (my friend and I) both tried to talk him out of it but he wouldn't hear it. And now, he is living in a luxury apartment and goes out all the time, since he figures the amount of debt he takes out doesn't matter too much, since he thinks it will be capped at 15% (pre-tax? post-tax?) and forgiven.

Now the federal government may have hiring freezes, and reduce size by hiring just one worker for every two who retire.. so while Obama was pushing public service, the reality now is that it will be much harder to find a federal entry level job.

Seriously, if I were in law school now I think I'd drop out if my grades weren't good... better to cut losses early.

[Anonymous]

Can we please refrain from calling non-1st- and -2nd tier law schools TURD schools?!?!? Some of us turds have done very well for ourselves and GASP!!! might actually be good lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LSATs are a pretty good indicator of how well someone will do in law school. Don't let him ruin his future. He's freakin' 31 and will be 34 when he graduates - a dinosaur for a first year associate. You should be a partner by that age. Why does everyone want to be a lawyer anyway? I think they need to raise the bar when it comes to admissions. Make the hurdle at the beginning and not after you've wasted three years of your life and borrowed $100k+. The ABA should be fined; they suck.

Baloney! I didn't do that well on the LSATs (76th percentile -- it was a different scale then. I think the highest was a 43 and I got a 36 or something). I graduated summa cum laude from a sold (not top tier school), clerked, worked at a Biglaw DC firm and now work at DOJ. LSATs are NOT necessarily a predictor of how you will do in law school or what type of lawyer you'll be.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true any more. DH graduated 3 years ago from a top 10 (but not HYS) and I worked in their admissions office for the entire time we lived there. Law schools are obsessed with rankings, and the biggest factor in rankings is median LSAT. Your relative will be lucky to get into the top 100 with a 150's score - and it will still be 6 figures of debt. This does NOT sound like a good idea to me.