Working Moms and Do It All Expectation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to work and be a mom. My brains will melt at home w/t a job. Yes, school hours are challenging but manageable — one parent drops off, the other picks up. Let people vent and complain! Once they go on vacation that they can afford due to dual income, and provide kids with extra curriculars that they can afford in this area due to dual income, they will feel better and choose work over staying at home again and again.

No, not everyone would make the same choices you make. The point is to have the choice and not be told you have to stay at home or you have to work. Not by a man and not by another woman.

DCUM is definitely going backward if we are fighting the mommy wars again.

The anti-feminists would very much love it if women didn’t have a choice. When they criticize “feminism” what do you think that means, exactly? The legal protections women won to give them choice: job protections so they couldn’t be fired for being a woman or being pregnant; equal educational and sports opportunities; the ability have a credit card and take out a mortgage; and probably most importantly the ability to control their reproduction (birth control is still legal and not going anywhere).

And some “feminists” want to shame some women who choose not to work outside the home rather than recognizing that the feminist movement was about being able to make choices, not which choice to make. Real feminists support that ability to choose and the mechanisms that make that possible. They don’t call people trad wives and tell them how to live.

zero feminists want to take away a woman’s legal right to stay home with her child if she chooses that. But plenty of anti-feminists want to take away women’s legal rights, or manipulate the system to force women to stay home.

Women claiming to be feminists post here telling women who stay at home that they are somehow betraying their fellow women by not having a job/career. Or that they don’t respect those women. Just like some SAHMs used to criticize women who worked out of the home back in the day.

[Anonymous]

I think the main problem - and why working took off for women in the first place - is that a SAHM is essentially trapped. She can't support herself, can't support her kids, she's completely dependent on her husband. Being a working mom is HARD but I feel very secure knowing that I am a fully independent person who would, god forbid, be able to take care of myself and my kids if something happened to my husband. Sure, I would love to be at home instead of at work! I mean, who wouldn't, male or female? But that trade off isn't one I'm willing to make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem is complex and centers mainly around the fact that a system that supported a working spouse/stay-at-home spouse model has NOT adapted to support two working spouses. For all the "advances" women have gained over the last several decades there is nearly no associated update to the infrastructure to support us.

Agreed, and the US really lags behind some other countries in this. The combination of (1) childcare being hard to find and very expensive, and (2) lack of leave and flexibility in US workplaces, combines to put American families in a bind. And it's compounded by rising housing and college costs.

In the US, if both parents work, you have to find full time childcare all year round. The problem does not go away when kids start school, because school breaks are lengthy and most American workplaces offer nowhere near the amount of leave necessary to cover them. Yes childcare is also not only very pricy but often hard to find. American families are constantly struggling to find childcare that will last until their work day is over, that will cover that last week of August before school starts, that will enable them to not have to take ever professional development day off work, etc.

Other countries have lower hours requirements for work, often government mandated leave policies that facilitate taking time off during school breaks, PLUS they often have subsidized childcare programs that make it easier for a family afford childcare from birth until a child is independent enough not to need it.

I used to see this as just a function of hyper-capitalist culture in the US, but with this Trump administration, I do view it more cynically as a concerted effort to try and force women out of the workforce by just making it too hard or expensive for families to go without a stay at home parent. Of course it's backfiring and instead birth rates are falling (note: falling birth rates are precisely why other countries adopted subsidized childcare and mandated leave policies). I think we're at a crossroads and it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the main problem - and why working took off for women in the first place - is that a SAHM is essentially trapped. She can't support herself, can't support her kids, she's completely dependent on her husband. Being a working mom is HARD but I feel very secure knowing that I am a fully independent person who would, god forbid, be able to take care of myself and my kids if something happened to my husband. Sure, I would love to be at home instead of at work! I mean, who wouldn't, male or female? But that trade off isn't one I'm willing to make.

I work part time and this is a big reason why. Stepping totally out of the workforce is scary to me. I actually did stay home for about a year when I first became a mom and I LOVED it, but the fear that came with having no independent income was ultimately too overwhelming. And I have a good marriage and a supportive husband, so it's not like I was planning for divorce or something. I'm actually more afraid my husband will die and I will need to support my family completely on my own -- I don't want to have to start from scratch if something like that happened.

But also -- being home alone cuts you off from other people in a way that is not healthy. Maybe it was different back in another era when many women stayed home and they had community in their neighborhoods. It's not like that now. Being a SAHM now is insanely isolating. I think this is one reason so many SAHMs become influencers or start posting on SM a lot -- they are trying to connect to people and build community. I don't get a ton of community from work but it does keep me plugged into the working world a little bit and that's worth a lot. I also just feel relief in earning my own money, being able to contribute to my own retirement accounts, etc.

[Anonymous]

DH and I have an income split of approximately 80/20, and the amount of house and child-related work each of us does is likely 20/80. Fortunately, we have enough combined resources to hire a lot of help, but the mental load of managing all the help is still significant. We try to attend all our kids' conferences, games, performances, etc., and more often, that stuff falls on me, the working mom.

I don't wish I had stayed home, though. I like my job enough, and I do not want to have the same power imbalance that I saw in my parents' very traditional, conservative marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to work and be a mom. My brains will melt at home w/t a job. Yes, school hours are challenging but manageable — one parent drops off, the other picks up. Let people vent and complain! Once they go on vacation that they can afford due to dual income, and provide kids with extra curriculars that they can afford in this area due to dual income, they will feel better and choose work over staying at home again and again.

No, not everyone would make the same choices you make. The point is to have the choice and not be told you have to stay at home or you have to work. Not by a man and not by another woman.

DCUM is definitely going backward if we are fighting the mommy wars again.

The anti-feminists would very much love it if women didn’t have a choice. When they criticize “feminism” what do you think that means, exactly? The legal protections women won to give them choice: job protections so they couldn’t be fired for being a woman or being pregnant; equal educational and sports opportunities; the ability have a credit card and take out a mortgage; and probably most importantly the ability to control their reproduction (birth control is still legal and not going anywhere).

And some “feminists” want to shame some women who choose not to work outside the home rather than recognizing that the feminist movement was about being able to make choices, not which choice to make. Real feminists support that ability to choose and the mechanisms that make that possible. They don’t call people trad wives and tell them how to live.

zero feminists want to take away a woman’s legal right to stay home with her child if she chooses that. But plenty of anti-feminists want to take away women’s legal rights, or manipulate the system to force women to stay home.

Women claiming to be feminists post here telling women who stay at home that they are somehow betraying their fellow women by not having a job/career. Or that they don’t respect those women. Just like some SAHMs used to criticize women who worked out of the home back in the day.

That's not true. Women who claim to be feminists generally understand that there are several waves of feminism, but one of feminism's most important tenets is uniting, not dividing, women to address common struggles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

The Ironic Part is when both couples work they often earn less as both of them can't fully commit to job. Plus there is child care, double commuting costs, work clothes, work lunches, more outsourcing of work at home like a maid. A dual couple often earns less. And the children suffer.

My wife is a rare SAHM once we decided to go that route. I was only making 60K and she was only making 60k. We decided to go all in on me, she would 100 percent support my career, I could work as late as needed, travel on a moments notice, join boards, travel for work, network after work. In other words 100 percent focused on work. Her Mom worked and she was bitter coming home to a house where she and sister was expected in HS to take care of their brother 10 years younger and no one every at a game or event or available to car pool.

Anyhow my salary went from 60k to 360K in 10 years. So after 10 years home we were making enough that it confused my dual income relatives our age. It does not matter man or women, the person with most career potential should focus on that. My own sister was not till her dumb husband got laid off third time after she just had third kid and he decided to be a stay at home Dad for next 15 years did her career rocketship up. She was done having kids and no longer had to do the SAHM and juggle work. They made a lot more money as soon as they picked one person to make a run at it. He was holding her back.

That sounds like a reach. What field are you in?

Not really, joined Big 4 and did a ton of work over 8 years, got promoted 3 times then left to have an exec job. Trouble is it involved me working 50-55 hour a week for 8 years and a lot of travel. Like 10-15 business trips a year. But once out of Big 4 became easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I"m 58, she's 53, one college aged kid. I get this speech all the time. Accompanied by "if you were just more successful in your career, I wouldn't have to work this stupid job.,"

Join the club. I make over 500k and my wife says this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to work and be a mom. My brains will melt at home w/t a job. Yes, school hours are challenging but manageable — one parent drops off, the other picks up. Let people vent and complain! Once they go on vacation that they can afford due to dual income, and provide kids with extra curriculars that they can afford in this area due to dual income, they will feel better and choose work over staying at home again and again.

No, not everyone would make the same choices you make. The point is to have the choice and not be told you have to stay at home or you have to work. Not by a man and not by another woman.

DCUM is definitely going backward if we are fighting the mommy wars again.

The anti-feminists would very much love it if women didn’t have a choice. When they criticize “feminism” what do you think that means, exactly? The legal protections women won to give them choice: job protections so they couldn’t be fired for being a woman or being pregnant; equal educational and sports opportunities; the ability have a credit card and take out a mortgage; and probably most importantly the ability to control their reproduction (birth control is still legal and not going anywhere).

And some “feminists” want to shame some women who choose not to work outside the home rather than recognizing that the feminist movement was about being able to make choices, not which choice to make. Real feminists support that ability to choose and the mechanisms that make that possible. They don’t call people trad wives and tell them how to live.

zero feminists want to take away a woman’s legal right to stay home with her child if she chooses that. But plenty of anti-feminists want to take away women’s legal rights, or manipulate the system to force women to stay home.

Women claiming to be feminists post here telling women who stay at home that they are somehow betraying their fellow women by not having a job/career. Or that they don’t respect those women. Just like some SAHMs used to criticize women who worked out of the home back in the day.

That's not true. Women who claim to be feminists generally understand that there are several waves of feminism, but one of feminism's most important tenets is uniting, not dividing, women to address common struggles.

I am not going to dig up the threads for you, but yes, it’s true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On I'm Chicago and I saw the exact same post. It was on Facebook. I am inundated in Facebook with stuff about "overwhelmed moms" and it feels synthetic to me. Also lots of stuff about lazy uninvolved husbands which mine is certainly not.
Somebody out there wants you resentful.
I work half time hours and I am happy and not overwhelmed at all. Of course I don't make DCUM money.

Agreed. All I see all around me are wonderful dads who are very, very involved. Why is there a constant narrative about men not doing enough? Go to any playground and it's full of men hanging out with their kids. Men are at all the school events at equal numbers to the moms present.

Honestly I'm glad I'm not a man because of all the constant hate that dads seem to get, despite all the chores they do, plus bringing home 50%+ of the income. My dh absolutely pulls his own weight. Despite all this, boomer women thank him and praise him for babysitting his own kids when he's at the grocery store with them (I haven't stepped into a grocery store in years, that's dh's chore). A relative couldn't get over how dh changed diapers (what?!!?). Millennial men have shown up for their wives and kids.

Eh, I'm in the middle on this. My DH absolutely does a ton and I'm so grateful to him for it. And also I do 2-3x more than he does. I'm so glad DH is more modern and not like my dad (or his dad) who did almost nothing even though both our moms worked. But that doesn't mean things are equal in our household at all. I still feel the "do it all" expectation even with a spouse who is an active, involved father.

So much of it is about culture and how men are socialized though. My DH is self aware for the most part but there are still entire swaths of parenting and household work that he is either not aware of at all or just silently leaves for me because he either doesn't know how or simply does not want to do them. He likes to pick his stuff, he wants to clean the kitchen and do drop off/pick up and take kids to the playground and that is it. But he never wants to vacuum or teach kids how to clean up after themselves or deal with all the school paperwork and logistics or figure out summer camp or hire a sitter or talk to a kid about why they got so mad at dinner or notice a kid has shot up over the summer and needs all new pants and figure out where to buy them and make sure the kid likes them and that they are uniform compliant. So he does the stuff he likes to do and I do everything else. It's not equal and it does lead to resentment. We will talk about it and he'll apologize and he'll try harder but we're both working under decades of being socialized a certain way. We don't get to just allocate simply and equally, we have to unpack the reasons why he's resistant to taking on certain stuff and try to overcome that and that's work too.

My DH has shown up for me and our kids but also it's still unequal because society hasn't really shown up for families in general. Everything he does around the house or with the kids is still seen as "extra" and kind of him, and everything I do is seen as expected and also insufficient, even though I also work! DH isn't the problem, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

This is so well said! My DH absolutely shows up for sports (registering, coaching, etc.), car maintenance, cakes for parties, yard work, and videogames. He sometimes helps with homework if he's home, and does some housework occasionally when something is bothering him. But really, he's doing the things he like and very little of the regular grind or stuff that he isn't interested in.

Summer camps, clothing, regular school follow up, volunteering, tutoring/other supports, birthday parties (planning their own and also gifts for others), doctors and dentist appointments, playdates, making lunches, homework, bedtime, groceries/meal planning/cooking - all of those fall on me. Plus I do all of our family logistics and planning - finances, vacations, the vast majority of home maintenance, etc. As a side note, we make the same amount as well and both work full time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

It's the expectation that women didn't have as much to contribute to society. On top of that many men abused the societal expectation. I'm happy with the idea one person stays home - why does that have to be the women? I have 130+ IQ and lead a team of 200+ people at a large corporation - should I be replaced by an inferior man simply because I'm a woman? I don't think so. And yes, I outsource all cleaning, cooking and shopping, and lots of driving - this alone give me the same amount of time with my kids many SAHMs have without help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

The Ironic Part is when both couples work they often earn less as both of them can't fully commit to job. Plus there is child care, double commuting costs, work clothes, work lunches, more outsourcing of work at home like a maid. A dual couple often earns less. And the children suffer.

My wife is a rare SAHM once we decided to go that route. I was only making 60K and she was only making 60k. We decided to go all in on me, she would 100 percent support my career, I could work as late as needed, travel on a moments notice, join boards, travel for work, network after work. In other words 100 percent focused on work. Her Mom worked and she was bitter coming home to a house where she and sister was expected in HS to take care of their brother 10 years younger and no one every at a game or event or available to car pool.

Anyhow my salary went from 60k to 360K in 10 years. So after 10 years home we were making enough that it confused my dual income relatives our age. It does not matter man or women, the person with most career potential should focus on that. My own sister was not till her dumb husband got laid off third time after she just had third kid and he decided to be a stay at home Dad for next 15 years did her career rocketship up. She was done having kids and no longer had to do the SAHM and juggle work. They made a lot more money as soon as they picked one person to make a run at it. He was holding her back.

I actually agree with all of this! It should be the highest potential pushed forward. The problem is male egos always think they're the highest potential. And they are 50% of the time - the other 50% are the women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9-5 is pretty ridiculous hours. Try working 7-3:30 or 8-4 instead and then it matches school hours better. I often leave at 5:30am, dh takes the kids to school and then I'm home by 3pm. It frees up the whole afternoon for me to be with kids.

My kids do after school activities and those activities (tae kwon do, ballet, gymnastics, kumon) all pick up from school and take them directly there. Technically they can all stay there until 6:30pm and occasionally I need it if I'm in long meetings downtown or something.

And yes, we all have choices. I wanted to have 3 kids, 5 bedroom house, nice vacations, college paid for. It's expensive. I know plenty of SAHMs who live in tiny apartments with 2 bedrooms and still live happy lives. America is great in that we do have choices. Become a trad wife if that makes you happy. Or marry a man who pulls his 50% (like I did). We all chose our majors, careers, spouses, houses. Change your choices if they aren't working for you.

Every single mom on my block of 2-4 million homes does not work or has a side job. Look my neighbor is a IVY league Doctor, sounds good. But she has four kids, range rover, mercedes convertible, beach house. She quit at 45 after birth of fourth child. She only made like 400k as a doctor. Her husband makes like 2-4 million as a CEO. What does she have to prove? She does on line medical stuff for a HMO just enough partime to keep license. The Dads on my block are all workholics who own business, judges, surgeons, CEOs, EVPs in IT alpha type males.

Five of my neighbors are SAHMs with no kids at home. Their kids are graduated and out of house. They are not going to work full time for 100k and give back half in taxes due to tax bracket. Yet somehow people think there are oppressed. 1/2 of these childless SAHMs have maids. I have no clue why. But they have so much money so they kept them after kids grown and they no longer work.

Our home is worth more than $4m, and we both work. Some of it is that we need both of our incomes to maintain our lifestyle, which includes an expensive mortgage, saving for college (almost done), saving for retirement, supporting both of DH's parents, paying dues at two clubs, and covering the costs of a nanny and housecleaner. We could downsize and get by on either of our incomes alone, but we're both so far along in our careers now that we have enough control over our schedules that we don't feel the need to retire. If something is important, we make room for it. I have several friends who have an HHI of over $1m or a HHNW of over $5m, and both of them work. I also have friends who fake work, like teach 3 pilates classes a week to claim they have a job, or they have a title working at their family office, and their only ascertainable duties are to attend quarterly family meetings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

The Ironic Part is when both couples work they often earn less as both of them can't fully commit to job. Plus there is child care, double commuting costs, work clothes, work lunches, more outsourcing of work at home like a maid. A dual couple often earns less. And the children suffer.

My wife is a rare SAHM once we decided to go that route. I was only making 60K and she was only making 60k. We decided to go all in on me, she would 100 percent support my career, I could work as late as needed, travel on a moments notice, join boards, travel for work, network after work. In other words 100 percent focused on work. Her Mom worked and she was bitter coming home to a house where she and sister was expected in HS to take care of their brother 10 years younger and no one every at a game or event or available to car pool.

Anyhow my salary went from 60k to 360K in 10 years. So after 10 years home we were making enough that it confused my dual income relatives our age. It does not matter man or women, the person with most career potential should focus on that. My own sister was not till her dumb husband got laid off third time after she just had third kid and he decided to be a stay at home Dad for next 15 years did her career rocketship up. She was done having kids and no longer had to do the SAHM and juggle work. They made a lot more money as soon as they picked one person to make a run at it. He was holding her back.

No offense, but most of us don't want this marriage. We wanted spouses who were home by 5:30. DH and I are both very ambitious and make 200k, but we wouldn't sacrifice our families so that one of us could work 15 hour days. DH had an offer last year to make 350k with very large bonuses, but it meant he'd be on call 24/7, traveling nonstop and working long days. I don't want to be a single mom and I actually really really love my DH. He's my person! Why do I have to deal with the kids and he doesn't? lol

I think what would be ideal is if DH and I only worked 7 hours a day each. Quality of life would go way up and then our hours would match school hours. I know everyone makes fun of "bank hours" but damn, it's "school hours" that we need to make fun of. 8-2:30 is wild.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

The Ironic Part is when both couples work they often earn less as both of them can't fully commit to job. Plus there is child care, double commuting costs, work clothes, work lunches, more outsourcing of work at home like a maid. A dual couple often earns less. And the children suffer.

My wife is a rare SAHM once we decided to go that route. I was only making 60K and she was only making 60k. We decided to go all in on me, she would 100 percent support my career, I could work as late as needed, travel on a moments notice, join boards, travel for work, network after work. In other words 100 percent focused on work. Her Mom worked and she was bitter coming home to a house where she and sister was expected in HS to take care of their brother 10 years younger and no one every at a game or event or available to car pool.

Anyhow my salary went from 60k to 360K in 10 years. So after 10 years home we were making enough that it confused my dual income relatives our age. It does not matter man or women, the person with most career potential should focus on that. My own sister was not till her dumb husband got laid off third time after she just had third kid and he decided to be a stay at home Dad for next 15 years did her career rocketship up. She was done having kids and no longer had to do the SAHM and juggle work. They made a lot more money as soon as they picked one person to make a run at it. He was holding her back.

No offense, but most of us don't want this marriage. We wanted spouses who were home by 5:30. DH and I are both very ambitious and make 200k, but we wouldn't sacrifice our families so that one of us could work 15 hour days. DH had an offer last year to make 350k with very large bonuses, but it meant he'd be on call 24/7, traveling nonstop and working long days. I don't want to be a single mom and I actually really really love my DH. He's my person! Why do I have to deal with the kids and he doesn't? lol

I think what would be ideal is if DH and I only worked 7 hours a day each. Quality of life would go way up and then our hours would match school hours. I know everyone makes fun of "bank hours" but damn, it's "school hours" that we need to make fun of. 8-2:30 is wild.

Ideally, you work 15 hours a day in your twenties and early thirties, and by the time you have kids, you have enough goodwill in your career to set a flexible work schedule around the family schedule. I know it doesn't work this way in all fields, but it did in ours.