SSL Hours for Religious Activities and the First Amendment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf

Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.

Please unenroll your spawn from mcps. We don’t want bigots near our kids. You are disgusting that you would even THINK to threaten based on what’s going on in the political climate.

You are such a spoiled brat that you are using religion as a shield against your bias.

Religion has no place in public education. Take it up with the state bigot.

You're the Unamerican bigot who hates the 1st Amendment. The state must not interest with religion. SSL is not "public education" it is individually directed by each student.

Wow. The gymnatistcs you must do I your head everyday. Ok Elon Jr.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Service learning hours are supposed to involve acts of service that benefit the community/society. So obviously it shouldn't include tasks where the goal isn't to benefit people/community/society, but instead just to advance some specific religion (and no, you can't just say "well I think if more people practiced my religion it would be better for society, so obviously helping advance my religion is service!") I believe you can get SSL hours for church activities that are actually about service to the community, which is fine, but it would be nuts to say that kids should be able to count helping assist in religious services or delivering religious training to children as community service.

It’s not nuts at all. No community service is going to benefit everyone.

Doing community service by volunteering as an assistant baseball coach benefits the team members. Doing community service by tutoring math benefits those receiving the tutoring. A HS student being an assistant teacher or tutoring at a religious program benefits the people in the program just the same.

It’s really hard to see how the community at large benefits from little Johnny getting help on his baseball swing in a way it doesn’t if Johnny is learning about Easter, Passover, or Ramadan.

More importantly, it’s not the government’s place to prioritize between these acts of community service.

This is my gripe with this issue.

My kid actually did get tons of SSL volunteering as an assistant coach for a sport. She loved it and it was a good experience.

But why should she get that and a kid who is helping out at Sunday school not get SSL?

Arbitrary and discriminatory.

And I have never been to Sunday school, nor do my kids attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Service learning hours are supposed to involve acts of service that benefit the community/society. So obviously it shouldn't include tasks where the goal isn't to benefit people/community/society, but instead just to advance some specific religion (and no, you can't just say "well I think if more people practiced my religion it would be better for society, so obviously helping advance my religion is service!") I believe you can get SSL hours for church activities that are actually about service to the community, which is fine, but it would be nuts to say that kids should be able to count helping assist in religious services or delivering religious training to children as community service.

It’s not nuts at all. No community service is going to benefit everyone.

Doing community service by volunteering as an assistant baseball coach benefits the team members. Doing community service by tutoring math benefits those receiving the tutoring. A HS student being an assistant teacher or tutoring at a religious program benefits the people in the program just the same.

It’s really hard to see how the community at large benefits from little Johnny getting help on his baseball swing in a way it doesn’t if Johnny is learning about Easter, Passover, or Ramadan.

More importantly, it’s not the government’s place to prioritize between these acts of community service.

This is my gripe with this issue.

My kid actually did get tons of SSL volunteering as an assistant coach for a sport. She loved it and it was a good experience.

But why should she get that and a kid who is helping out at Sunday school not get SSL?

Arbitrary and discriminatory.

And I have never been to Sunday school, nor do my kids attend.

Because we have something called separation of church and state enshrined in our Constitution. If your kid wants credit for teaching Sunday School, send them to Catholic school rather than expecting MCPS to provide credit for teaching Christianity.

[Anonymous]

My kids went to Catholic school and our SSL hours could not be with our church either.

First of all, you should do things at your church and not expect something in return. Second, unless we were working with underprivileged it wasn’t considered volunteering.

That’s like saying you were the scorekeeper for a basketball game and didn’t get paid. I mean that’s not helping anybody. I mean that’s a nice thing to do but it’s not service.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Service learning hours are supposed to involve acts of service that benefit the community/society. So obviously it shouldn't include tasks where the goal isn't to benefit people/community/society, but instead just to advance some specific religion (and no, you can't just say "well I think if more people practiced my religion it would be better for society, so obviously helping advance my religion is service!") I believe you can get SSL hours for church activities that are actually about service to the community, which is fine, but it would be nuts to say that kids should be able to count helping assist in religious services or delivering religious training to children as community service.

It’s not nuts at all. No community service is going to benefit everyone.

Doing community service by volunteering as an assistant baseball coach benefits the team members. Doing community service by tutoring math benefits those receiving the tutoring. A HS student being an assistant teacher or tutoring at a religious program benefits the people in the program just the same.

It’s really hard to see how the community at large benefits from little Johnny getting help on his baseball swing in a way it doesn’t if Johnny is learning about Easter, Passover, or Ramadan.

More importantly, it’s not the government’s place to prioritize between these acts of community service.

This is my gripe with this issue.

My kid actually did get tons of SSL volunteering as an assistant coach for a sport. She loved it and it was a good experience.

But why should she get that and a kid who is helping out at Sunday school not get SSL?

Arbitrary and discriminatory.

And I have never been to Sunday school, nor do my kids attend.

Because we have something called separation of church and state enshrined in our Constitution. If your kid wants credit for teaching Sunday School, send them to Catholic school rather than expecting MCPS to provide credit for teaching Christianity.

I didn’t see anyone say anything about Catholicism or even Christianity.

And your constitutional “analysis” ignores the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. You are right that the government can’t establish a religion, meaning they can’t teach Christianity (or any other religion) in school, but they also can’t impede the free exercise of religion, and generally can’t express hostility toward religious activities relative to secular activities.

If a school is going to require community service, but refuse to permit a student (if they so choose) to complete that community service in a religious setting while permitting the exact same service in a secular setting, there is a strong argument that is illegal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Service learning hours are supposed to involve acts of service that benefit the community/society. So obviously it shouldn't include tasks where the goal isn't to benefit people/community/society, but instead just to advance some specific religion (and no, you can't just say "well I think if more people practiced my religion it would be better for society, so obviously helping advance my religion is service!") I believe you can get SSL hours for church activities that are actually about service to the community, which is fine, but it would be nuts to say that kids should be able to count helping assist in religious services or delivering religious training to children as community service.

It’s not nuts at all. No community service is going to benefit everyone.

Doing community service by volunteering as an assistant baseball coach benefits the team members. Doing community service by tutoring math benefits those receiving the tutoring. A HS student being an assistant teacher or tutoring at a religious program benefits the people in the program just the same.

It’s really hard to see how the community at large benefits from little Johnny getting help on his baseball swing in a way it doesn’t if Johnny is learning about Easter, Passover, or Ramadan.

More importantly, it’s not the government’s place to prioritize between these acts of community service.

This is my gripe with this issue.

My kid actually did get tons of SSL volunteering as an assistant coach for a sport. She loved it and it was a good experience.

But why should she get that and a kid who is helping out at Sunday school not get SSL?

Arbitrary and discriminatory.

And I have never been to Sunday school, nor do my kids attend.

Because we have something called separation of church and state enshrined in our Constitution. If your kid wants credit for teaching Sunday School, send them to Catholic school rather than expecting MCPS to provide credit for teaching Christianity.

I didn’t see anyone say anything about Catholicism or even Christianity.

And your constitutional “analysis” ignores the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. You are right that the government can’t establish a religion, meaning they can’t teach Christianity (or any other religion) in school, but they also can’t impede the free exercise of religion, and generally can’t express hostility toward religious activities relative to secular activities.

If a school is going to require community service, but refuse to permit a student (if they so choose) to complete that community service in a religious setting while permitting the exact same service in a secular setting, there is a strong argument that is illegal.

MCPS has SSL Guidelines for Faith Organizations in the Community. And people have repeated the content of these rules over and over again in this thread.

Why don't you try reading rather than throwing out words you don't understand like "illegal"?
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/k-q/qohs/uploadedfiles/ssl/religionandssl.pdf
The following are key to faith organizations awarding SSL
opportunities:
 Address and/or serve issues and populations beyond their religious community and general membership.
 Serve the wider public (generally an underserved population: poor, elderly, infirmed, disabled, at-risk youth,
etc)—not just members of a particular faith community or those who are adherents to their denomination.
 Be an activity that is open to the non-denominational public
 If educational, be in a setting that has a secular curriculum and secular programming

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Service learning hours are supposed to involve acts of service that benefit the community/society. So obviously it shouldn't include tasks where the goal isn't to benefit people/community/society, but instead just to advance some specific religion (and no, you can't just say "well I think if more people practiced my religion it would be better for society, so obviously helping advance my religion is service!") I believe you can get SSL hours for church activities that are actually about service to the community, which is fine, but it would be nuts to say that kids should be able to count helping assist in religious services or delivering religious training to children as community service.

It’s not nuts at all. No community service is going to benefit everyone.

Doing community service by volunteering as an assistant baseball coach benefits the team members. Doing community service by tutoring math benefits those receiving the tutoring. A HS student being an assistant teacher or tutoring at a religious program benefits the people in the program just the same.

It’s really hard to see how the community at large benefits from little Johnny getting help on his baseball swing in a way it doesn’t if Johnny is learning about Easter, Passover, or Ramadan.

More importantly, it’s not the government’s place to prioritize between these acts of community service.

This is my gripe with this issue.

My kid actually did get tons of SSL volunteering as an assistant coach for a sport. She loved it and it was a good experience.

But why should she get that and a kid who is helping out at Sunday school not get SSL?

Arbitrary and discriminatory.

And I have never been to Sunday school, nor do my kids attend.

Because we have something called separation of church and state enshrined in our Constitution. If your kid wants credit for teaching Sunday School, send them to Catholic school rather than expecting MCPS to provide credit for teaching Christianity.

I didn’t see anyone say anything about Catholicism or even Christianity.

And your constitutional “analysis” ignores the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. You are right that the government can’t establish a religion, meaning they can’t teach Christianity (or any other religion) in school, but they also can’t impede the free exercise of religion, and generally can’t express hostility toward religious activities relative to secular activities.

If a school is going to require community service, but refuse to permit a student (if they so choose) to complete that community service in a religious setting while permitting the exact same service in a secular setting, there is a strong argument that is illegal.

MCPS has SSL Guidelines for Faith Organizations in the Community. And people have repeated the content of these rules over and over again in this thread.

Why don't you try reading rather than throwing out words you don't understand like "illegal"?
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/k-q/qohs/uploadedfiles/ssl/religionandssl.pdf
The following are key to faith organizations awarding SSL
opportunities:
 Address and/or serve issues and populations beyond their religious community and general membership.
 Serve the wider public (generally an underserved population: poor, elderly, infirmed, disabled, at-risk youth,
etc)—not just members of a particular faith community or those who are adherents to their denomination.
 Be an activity that is open to the non-denominational public
 If educational, be in a setting that has a secular curriculum and secular programming

I’ve never said I didn’t understand the rules or disputed that what I am proposing violates current MCPS policy.

I’ve been saying there is a good chance that current MCPS policy violates the constitution.

Those are two very different things.

[Anonymous]

My kids hours at Church count for non religious activities.
The food pantry we help at once a month counts.
Hosting a Thanksgiving dinner for the community counts.
Helping at summer camp open to everyone counts.

Her being an acolyte in the service doesn’t count.

It’s easy to figure out out OP. If your Church has those other activities have your kid do those. If not, maybe look into getting them started. I can’t imagine there are many churches without community outreach. They’re a big part of church life.

[Anonymous]

Someone should file a lawsuit.

It seems wrong that teens can get SSL hours at a for-profit business like Olney’s Field of Screams yet can’t get SSL hours through their church.

[Anonymous]

These don't count:
* helping with Sunday School


That is unacceptable. My DD has gone back to her elementary school and helped the teachers out with various tasks. She has also volunteered in the Media Center, etc.

What is the difference? Helping out an MCPS teacher or helping out a Sunday School teacher. Both should be allowed. Or neither should be allowed. If anything, the Sunday School teacher is likely an unpaid volunteer, whereas the MCPS teacher is a paid individual.

You can't be this dense. Elementary schools enroll anyone. Sunday School enrolls members of a particular faith. Therefore service in an elementary school is for the wider community. Service at Sunday School is for a narrow group.

If you want your kid to volunteer at Sunday School, nothing is stopping you. Please just have her do it if she likes it -- maybe she'll get a good college essay out of the experience. It just doesn't count for SSL requirements. It is incredibly easy to get 75 hours -- something like 30 or 40 of them you get by just showing up for class in 6th through 9th grade. If your kid can't find a way to do another 35 hours of service to the wider community over the course of 7 years of middle and high school, that's on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone should file a lawsuit.

It seems wrong that teens can get SSL hours at a for-profit business like Olney’s Field of Screams yet can’t get SSL hours through their church.

If you think a lawsuit should be filed, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from investing in that.

If you are asking peoples opinion, they are giving it to you. If you want to file a lawsuit, feel free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

These don't count:
* helping with Sunday School


That is unacceptable. My DD has gone back to her elementary school and helped the teachers out with various tasks. She has also volunteered in the Media Center, etc.

What is the difference? Helping out an MCPS teacher or helping out a Sunday School teacher. Both should be allowed. Or neither should be allowed. If anything, the Sunday School teacher is likely an unpaid volunteer, whereas the MCPS teacher is a paid individual.

You can't be this dense. Elementary schools enroll anyone. Sunday School enrolls members of a particular faith. Therefore service in an elementary school is for the wider community. Service at Sunday School is for a narrow group.

If you want your kid to volunteer at Sunday School, nothing is stopping you. Please just have her do it if she likes it -- maybe she'll get a good college essay out of the experience. It just doesn't count for SSL requirements. It is incredibly easy to get 75 hours -- something like 30 or 40 of them you get by just showing up for class in 6th through 9th grade. If your kid can't find a way to do another 35 hours of service to the wider community over the course of 7 years of middle and high school, that's on you.

Elementary schools enroll everyone. Basketball teams only enroll those who choose to join and pay. Therefore, service to an elementary school benefits the wider community, but service as a coaching assistant to a youth program only benefits the narrow group that chooses to join the basketball league.

And yet, MCPS allows SSL hours for one type of “narrow” service and not another.

Sure, kids could do religious volunteering on their own time without ssl credit, but your kid could do what you consider community wide volunteering on their own time without credit too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Service learning hours are supposed to involve acts of service that benefit the community/society. So obviously it shouldn't include tasks where the goal isn't to benefit people/community/society, but instead just to advance some specific religion (and no, you can't just say "well I think if more people practiced my religion it would be better for society, so obviously helping advance my religion is service!") I believe you can get SSL hours for church activities that are actually about service to the community, which is fine, but it would be nuts to say that kids should be able to count helping assist in religious services or delivering religious training to children as community service.

My kid gets all sorts of random SSL hours in MS that don't directly 'benefit the community'. Maybe they need to define that more clearly.

She got SSL hours in MS for a discussion/writing assignment about the book Stamped by Kendi. If that was allowed, then it would follow that SSL at Sunday School should also be allowed. Why does MCPS allow one and not the other?

The whole SSL system should be scrapped. SSL allows for a bunch of activities that are not service to the broader community, but are service to a narrow group of individuals. A kid can get SSL hours for volunteering as a referee at a privately funded sports event where the organization filled out the appropriate paperwork to get accredited, by sending baked goods for a teacher staff meeting, for having your kid volunteer as a "junior counselor" at a summer camp that charges thousands of dollars per kid (hello: Levine School of Music) or at a camp which exists to further a religion (vacation Bible school). Most 6th graders get 20 hours just for attending Outdoor Ed. And yes, I have had parents tell me that their church or synagogue is accredited and just signs off on 2 hours a week as the kid attends services. Meanwhile 25% of kids at MCPS are in danger of not graduating because they don't meet these criteria, because they don't belong to connected institutions who can help them game the system and get the hours.

I wish there were more kids volunteering at soup kitchens and to tutor to underprivileged kids, but the kids with the most time and resources to do SSL hours tend to live in the wealthiest MCPS areas, and their parents would rather they remain nearby in their circle of comfort.

I agree that the student service learning should be terminated. It’s not really volunteering if you’re forced to do it.
Even the community service hours that are given away at school aren’t really community service. It’s watching a video. So even the school knows that these hours are meaningless so they’ll assign something that doesn’t even matter.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s important to keep in mind that the MCPS policy has to align with Maryland’s guidelines for SSL. Since we’re the only state to have a SSL requirement, any challenge would have to go to the state. It represents a choice the state made. There are other public school districts which require SSL hours that do not have some such limitations on connections to religious activities.
However, like many have said, the purpose of the SSL program may not be well served by the way it is done, and would be best discontinued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s important to keep in mind that the MCPS policy has to align with Maryland’s guidelines for SSL. Since we’re the only state to have a SSL requirement, any challenge would have to go to the state. It represents a choice the state made. There are other public school districts which require SSL hours that do not have some such limitations on connections to religious activities.
However, like many have said, the purpose of the SSL program may not be well served by the way it is done, and would be best discontinued.

It's not fair that some kids may not graduate because they didn't have the time/means to do 75 hours of extra service learning, while most other kids are engaging in SSL activities that aren't what most people would consider community service. Plus there's an MCPS office of like 15 staff members managing SSL. Get rid of those slots and use their salaries to reduce class sizes or make changes to Canva/Synergy so it actually works.