SSL Hours for Religious Activities and the First Amendment

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:We are new to MCPS and are trying to get the lay of the land for SSL hours. Our Sunday school has HS kids volunteering as aids with classes for younger children my daughter was interested in doing that to fulfill her SSL hours.

But, it seems like this would not be allowed under MCPS policy, see below.

Has anyone attempted to challenge that/sought an exemption within MCPS or outside of MCPS?

It looks like you can earn hours for assisting with a chess camp, nature program, sports program, basically anything but a religious program.

How does this not create a free exercise problem? When MCPS rents out buildings after hours, they aren't allowed to prohibit religious groups from renting; they have to offer them on the same terms they offer any other entity.

I don't see how allowing this would create an establishment clause problem because it is not MCPS choosing or endorsing the activity, any more than it is MCPS endorsing a nature group. It would be the student choosing to volunteer in a religious setting and students would have the option to volunteer for activities of any religion, or no religion at all.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/ssl/pages/faq/#:~:text=SSL%20hours%20are%20awarded%20only,the%20furtherance%20of%20religious%20tradition.

Can SSL hours be earned by acting as a class/teacher aide in a congregationally-based program, including tutoring/teaching a foreign language?
Generally not, SSL hours are awarded only in the context of an educational setting whose purpose is secular, not religious or faith-based. Tutoring or classroom assistance does not qualify for SSL in congregational programs whose curriculum focuses on instruction (or language instruction) for the purpose of the furtherance of religious observance.


Building rentals are managed through the county not the school and come at a fee.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are new to MCPS and are trying to get the lay of the land for SSL hours. Our Sunday school has HS kids volunteering as aids with classes for younger children my daughter was interested in doing that to fulfill her SSL hours.

But, it seems like this would not be allowed under MCPS policy, see below.

Has anyone attempted to challenge that/sought an exemption within MCPS or outside of MCPS?

It looks like you can earn hours for assisting with a chess camp, nature program, sports program, basically anything but a religious program.

How does this not create a free exercise problem? When MCPS rents out buildings after hours, they aren't allowed to prohibit religious groups from renting; they have to offer them on the same terms they offer any other entity.

I don't see how allowing this would create an establishment clause problem because it is not MCPS choosing or endorsing the activity, any more than it is MCPS endorsing a nature group. It would be the student choosing to volunteer in a religious setting and students would have the option to volunteer for activities of any religion, or no religion at all.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/ssl/pages/faq/#:~:text=SSL%20hours%20are%20awarded%20only,the%20furtherance%20of%20religious%20tradition.

Can SSL hours be earned by acting as a class/teacher aide in a congregationally-based program, including tutoring/teaching a foreign language?
Generally not, SSL hours are awarded only in the context of an educational setting whose purpose is secular, not religious or faith-based. Tutoring or classroom assistance does not qualify for SSL in congregational programs whose curriculum focuses on instruction (or language instruction) for the purpose of the furtherance of religious observance.


Building rentals are managed through the county not the school and come at a fee.


The school is part of the county government. And what does the fee have to do with anything?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Eh, we get SSL hours for our church’s holiday bazaar.


How? I thought the organizations had to be approved.


DP. I think the policy says the volunteering can be for a religious institution as long as the activity itself isn’t religious. So if you help at a church bazaar or a synagogue outing to clean up a river, it’s ok, but if you are helping at Sunday school where the activities are religious, you are out of luck.


Helping a teacher in a classroom is helping a teacher in a classroom. How does the nature of the service change based on what the teacher happens to be teaching? If the service student is helping a toddler use scissors to cut out a picture of a lamb, why does it matter whether the lamb is going to pasted into a barnyard or a barn where there happens to be a baby in a manger nearby?


I agree with you. I was just explaining my understanding of the policy.
Anonymous
This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf
Anonymous
Sorry for the typos. Typing on the IPad is not for me, apparently.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.



Please unenroll your spawn from mcps. We don’t want bigots near our kids. You are disgusting that you would even THINK to threaten based on what’s going on in the political climate.

You are such a spoiled brat that you are using religion as a shield against your bias.

Religion has no place in public education. Take it up with the state bigot.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:This is like the question on the other thread asking if athletes can count their sports practice to get out of the PE requirement. No one is stopping your daughter from volunteering at Sunday school. But she’ll need to do other volunteering for SSL hours that follows the guidelines everyone else adheres to. It’s not hard at all to get SSL hours. You don’t need an exception.


LOL. That is NOT the same thing at all.

I'm not religious, but it's ridiculous that students can't count volunteering at Sunday School towards SSL hours. That should DEFINITELY be allowed.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Not the OP, but thanks for posting this. I hope someone pursues this (won't be me because we don't belong to a church lol). There is a ridiculous, unfair double standard in MCPS regarding this issue.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Teens can earn SSL hours through their church if the work they do benefits the wider community. If the work only benefits members of the church, it doesn't count.

These don't count:
* helping with Sunday School

* serving as a reader, usher, acolyte, choir member, etc.

These do count:
* direct service that is coordinated through a church such as making bag lunches for the unhoused, helping at a clothing intake center, etc.
* volunteering at events that are open to all. for example, our church has a Halloween Trunk or Treat and 90%+ of the kids who come don't go to our church. Teens run the games and get SSL hours.



That is unacceptable. My DD has gone back to her elementary school and helped the teachers out with various tasks. She has also volunteered in the Media Center, etc.

What is the difference? Helping out an MCPS teacher or helping out a Sunday School teacher. Both should be allowed. Or neither should be allowed. If anything, the Sunday School teacher is likely an unpaid volunteer, whereas the MCPS teacher is a paid individual.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.



Please unenroll your spawn from mcps. We don’t want bigots near our kids. You are disgusting that you would even THINK to threaten based on what’s going on in the political climate.

You are such a spoiled brat that you are using religion as a shield against your bias.

Religion has no place in public education. Take it up with the state bigot.


As a member of a minority religion, I absolutely agree religion has no place in public education.

I also think kids should be able to get SSL hours for volunteering at a religious school ON THEIR OWN TIME AND OUTSIDE OF PUBLIC SCHOOL if they so choose.

SSL hours are designed to require kids to volunteer and give back to their community. A kid who volunteers to tutor at a religious school is doing this just as much as a kid who volunteers to tutor at a non-religious program.

While I won’t stoop to your level, it’s quite ironic you call me a bigot. Ignoring that you know nothing about my beliefs (religious or political), your post shows such a visceral hatred for any sort of religion that I would hardly call you open minding and accepting.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.


I think the policy is unquestionably discriminatory and unlawful. There are a number of pro bono outfits that take these specific types of cases, and if you’re interested it won’t take long to identify candidates online.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.



Please unenroll your spawn from mcps. We don’t want bigots near our kids. You are disgusting that you would even THINK to threaten based on what’s going on in the political climate.

You are such a spoiled brat that you are using religion as a shield against your bias.

Religion has no place in public education. Take it up with the state bigot.


As a member of a minority religion, I absolutely agree religion has no place in public education.

I also think kids should be able to get SSL hours for volunteering at a religious school ON THEIR OWN TIME AND OUTSIDE OF PUBLIC SCHOOL if they so choose.

SSL hours are designed to require kids to volunteer and give back to their community. A kid who volunteers to tutor at a religious school is doing this just as much as a kid who volunteers to tutor at a non-religious program.


While I won’t stoop to your level, it’s quite ironic you call me a bigot. Ignoring that you know nothing about my beliefs (religious or political), your post shows such a visceral hatred for any sort of religion that I would hardly call you open minding and accepting.


Agree with this. Either get rid of all SSL requirements, or allow kids to 'give back to the community' in the way they and their families see fit in order to fulfill these SSL requirements.

FWIW, I'm agnostic but this current policy is hypocritical, discriminatory and ridiculous.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Teens can earn SSL hours through their church if the work they do benefits the wider community. If the work only benefits members of the church, it doesn't count.

These don't count:
* helping with Sunday School
* serving as a reader, usher, acolyte, choir member, etc.

These do count:
* direct service that is coordinated through a church such as making bag lunches for the unhoused, helping at a clothing intake center, etc.
* volunteering at events that are open to all. for example, our church has a Halloween Trunk or Treat and 90%+ of the kids who come don't go to our church. Teens run the games and get SSL hours.



Yes, this.
My kids earned a ton of SSL hours through our church’s youth group because they were doing service projects for the community. They didn’t get any hours when they served as acolytes or Sunday school assistants. That seems entirely reasonable to me.


This is also my understanding. They can't get SSLs for practicing or teaching their religion. But they can do good works under the umbrella of a religious organization.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting legal question. There was. Case in 2016 when two college students sued the University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire ove something similar. The school denied their submitted 30 community service hours which were based on instructing Sunday School at a local Catholic Church. The case was settled out of court, resulting in the university removing the language that restricted this type of religious service and accepted the students’ hours. The case is Liebl v. Schmidt. No formal ruling was ever issued about the actual constitutional question, but it tracks very closely to what the OP was asking.
Here’s the settlement agreement: https://adflegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Liebl-v-Schmidt-2017-05-21-Settlement-Agreement.pdf


Thank you!

I bet the current DOE would view the policy as illegal, as would the current Supreme Court, possibly by more than 6-3.



Please unenroll your spawn from mcps. We don’t want bigots near our kids. You are disgusting that you would even THINK to threaten based on what’s going on in the political climate.

You are such a spoiled brat that you are using religion as a shield against your bias.

Religion has no place in public education. Take it up with the state bigot.


As a member of a minority religion, I absolutely agree religion has no place in public education.

I also think kids should be able to get SSL hours for volunteering at a religious school ON THEIR OWN TIME AND OUTSIDE OF PUBLIC SCHOOL if they so choose.

SSL hours are designed to require kids to volunteer and give back to their community. A kid who volunteers to tutor at a religious school is doing this just as much as a kid who volunteers to tutor at a non-religious program.


While I won’t stoop to your level, it’s quite ironic you call me a bigot. Ignoring that you know nothing about my beliefs (religious or political), your post shows such a visceral hatred for any sort of religion that I would hardly call you open minding and accepting.


Agree with this. Either get rid of all SSL requirements, or allow kids to 'give back to the community' in the way they and their families see fit in order to fulfill these SSL requirements.

FWIW, I'm agnostic but this current policy is hypocritical, discriminatory and ridiculous.


Seems to me it should be fine (and I'm guessing would be approved by the SSL office) if a kid does math tutoring for kids at a religious school. They just can't teach bible study, right?

For any organization to give SSL hours they have to go through a process of getting approved by MCSP. Has any religious school tried to get approved for this kind of thing? I'm guessing it would be approved but is an administrative struggle to explain/justify and get through the process and isn't something that is frequently needed.
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