Bela Karolyi is dead

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He claimed he didn’t know about Nasser’s abuse. Why don’t people believe him? Do you think all of the parents who also claim they didn’t know are lying as well?

Why is be being blamed for parents subjecting their kids to his intensive training? He wasn’t hired to be these girls’ parent; he was hired to train to gymnasts, and he was incredibly successful at that task.

1. THere were kids living at his ranch in TX. It was his JOB to know if anyone was hurting/abusing his athletes.
2. He is blamed for HAVING traumatizing training. You can train someone to the Olympics without screaming at them that they are a fat, pregnant cow [b]until they cry. But that's the method he chose.

He didn't do that

The hell he didn’t.

[Anonymous]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/gymnastics-coach-bela-karolyi-who-came-under-fire-during-nassar-scandal-dies-at-82

[Anonymous]

Sad. He was a legend.

[Anonymous]

A lot of people here who clearly do not follow gymnastics or only recall John Tesh’s piano montages from the 90s.

Karolyi was not the hands on coach of these girls. Their talent was honed by other coaches. Read Dominique Moceanu’s book Off Balance. He was not her personal coach but would swoop in and take credit whenever a camera was around.

Nadia wanted never to be coached by him again after her time in Romania, despite what she says. Anyone who listens to the Gymcastic podcast will know about his abuse, including accusations of SA, in Romanian investigations of him.

This is not a good person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Right… that’s why gymnasts now are healthier, happier, not abused, more mature because they can continue their sport into their 20s…

So you disagree that he did a lot for the sport?

I’m saying who knows how many gymnasts quit because he fostered an abusive USA gymnastics culture from the top down. When you think of all the talented girls and women who could’ve been something but didn’t want to deal with abuse, I’m sure the sport would be even better.

He squandered multiple generations of talent for the sake of his own selfish ego, and he conned and coerced parents into his scheme, and anyone who believes otherwise doesn’t know much about gymnastics.

Squandered talent? Have you watched the last few olympics and all the gold medals?

With all due respect, I know people who trained at the Karolyi ranch so I do know. And people absolutely knew they were tough, knew what they were getting, but sent their kids anyway.

Do you understand the depth of US talent that disappeared on an annual basis because of his abusive practices? Do you know how much deeper of a bench of 25-35 year olds we might have had in the last few Olympic cycles had he not broken them when they were just 10, 11 or 12 years old? How clueless are you about gymnastics behind the 5 women you see on tv every 4 years?

When you are talking about high-level gymnastics, you are not looking at how many average gymnasts you can develop (how deep the bench is), you are looking at how many are truly competitive. A training regimen developed for top gymnasts will break your average gymnast. The gymnasts (and their parents) can decide to keep pushing, take it a notch down, or get out of the sport (there is space at many different levels). The history will say that he was Nadia's coach and there will be little space left for the names of the countless average gymnasts who trained under him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people here who clearly do not follow gymnastics or only recall John Tesh’s piano montages from the 90s.

Karolyi was not the hands on coach of these girls. Their talent was honed by other coaches. Read Dominique Moceanu’s book Off Balance. He was not her personal coach but would swoop in and take credit whenever a camera was around.

Nadia wanted never to be coached by him again after her time in Romania, despite what she says. Anyone who listens to the Gymcastic podcast will know about his abuse, including accusations of SA, in Romanian investigations of him.

This is not a good person.

There will always be different perspectives and you can always find one that fits with your personal bias. Are you going to claim that he is not responsible for the success of the Romanian gymnastics either? He just happened to be there and take advantage of the work of other coaches? Are you going to claim that he changed into this hands-off coach once he moved to the US? He just happened to be there at the right time when the US gymnastics became competitive? You can tell yourself all kind of stories - whatever floats your boat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Like molesting girls and creating a culture of fear. He certainly left a big legacy and made a very big impact on the sport.

He did not molest girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Right… that’s why gymnasts now are healthier, happier, not abused, more mature because they can continue their sport into their 20s…

So you disagree that he did a lot for the sport?

I’m saying who knows how many gymnasts quit because he fostered an abusive USA gymnastics culture from the top down. When you think of all the talented girls and women who could’ve been something but didn’t want to deal with abuse, I’m sure the sport would be even better.

He squandered multiple generations of talent for the sake of his own selfish ego, and he conned and coerced parents into his scheme, and anyone who believes otherwise doesn’t know much about gymnastics.

Squandered talent? Have you watched the last few olympics and all the gold medals?

With all due respect, I know people who trained at the Karolyi ranch so I do know. And people absolutely knew they were tough, knew what they were getting, but sent their kids anyway.

Do you understand the depth of US talent that disappeared on an annual basis because of his abusive practices? Do you know how much deeper of a bench of 25-35 year olds we might have had in the last few Olympic cycles had he not broken them when they were just 10, 11 or 12 years old? How clueless are you about gymnastics behind the 5 women you see on tv every 4 years?

When you are talking about high-level gymnastics, you are not looking at how many average gymnasts you can develop (how deep the bench is), you are looking at how many are truly competitive. A training regimen developed for top gymnasts will break your average gymnast. The gymnasts (and their parents) can decide to keep pushing, take it a notch down, or get out of the sport (there is space at many different levels). The history will say that he was Nadia's coach and there will be little space left for the names of the countless average gymnasts who trained under him.

I’m not talking average gymnasts. I’m talking people who could have been their generation’s Suni, Jordan, and Jade but were destroyed by ignorant coaching practices. The training regimens developed by competent coaches today for top gymnasts does not break even “average” athletes nor those with talent.

The attitude you’re demonstrating is outdated and naive. Proper pacing, nutrition and healthy coaching practices are why we now have athletes who are level 10 who may not even find a team to compete on in college today but could have been national team members or Olympians 30 years ago. There are athletes training HOPES and junior elite today who are being brought up by a mix of coaches who follow the old-school ways of the Karolyis and those who are taking the opposite path. Do some research into new senior gymnasts and level 10 college recruits coming out of various programs and you’ll see a stark difference between the injury history and staying power of athletes from the different styles of training.

Thank god the sport is evolving beyond the stupid attitudes displayed by every-four-year fans and apologists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people here who clearly do not follow gymnastics or only recall John Tesh’s piano montages from the 90s.

Karolyi was not the hands on coach of these girls. Their talent was honed by other coaches. Read Dominique Moceanu’s book Off Balance. He was not her personal coach but would swoop in and take credit whenever a camera was around.

Nadia wanted never to be coached by him again after her time in Romania, despite what she says. Anyone who listens to the Gymcastic podcast will know about his abuse, including accusations of SA, in Romanian investigations of him.

This is not a good person.

There will always be different perspectives and you can always find one that fits with your personal bias. Are you going to claim that he is not responsible for the success of the Romanian gymnastics either? He just happened to be there and take advantage of the work of other coaches? Are you going to claim that he changed into this hands-off coach once he moved to the US? He just happened to be there at the right time when the US gymnastics became competitive? You can tell yourself all kind of stories - whatever floats your boat.

Actually there are a lot of good memoirs, including Moceanu’s, that explain how he jumped into the Romanian program and did take a lot of credit for others’ work. And it was well-known that in the 80s in the U.S. he basically poached athletes at the last minute before the Olympics, trials, nationals, etc. There are countless stories of athletes who came from their home gyms to train with him in the last year of Olympic cycles.

He took full advantage of Nadia’s success and a void in US gymnastics leadership, Cold War dynamics and the egos of U.S. officials who wanted to stick it to the Soviet bloc by flaunting him. He was a master manipulator and marketer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Like molesting girls and creating a culture of fear. He certainly left a big legacy and made a very big impact on the sport.

He did not molest girls.

You have to understand who you are talking to. This is the generation of gentle parenting and positive reinforcement. For them, a parent who raises their voice creates unspeakable trauma. I am not surprised that a no nonsense training program is seen as molesting girls. They are convinced that they are not speaking in hyperbolae.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Right… that’s why gymnasts now are healthier, happier, not abused, more mature because they can continue their sport into their 20s…

So you disagree that he did a lot for the sport?

I’m saying who knows how many gymnasts quit because he fostered an abusive USA gymnastics culture from the top down. When you think of all the talented girls and women who could’ve been something but didn’t want to deal with abuse, I’m sure the sport would be even better.

He squandered multiple generations of talent for the sake of his own selfish ego, and he conned and coerced parents into his scheme, and anyone who believes otherwise doesn’t know much about gymnastics.

Squandered talent? Have you watched the last few olympics and all the gold medals?

With all due respect, I know people who trained at the Karolyi ranch so I do know. And people absolutely knew they were tough, knew what they were getting, but sent their kids anyway.

Do you understand the depth of US talent that disappeared on an annual basis because of his abusive practices? Do you know how much deeper of a bench of 25-35 year olds we might have had in the last few Olympic cycles had he not broken them when they were just 10, 11 or 12 years old? How clueless are you about gymnastics behind the 5 women you see on tv every 4 years?

When you are talking about high-level gymnastics, you are not looking at how many average gymnasts you can develop (how deep the bench is), you are looking at how many are truly competitive. A training regimen developed for top gymnasts will break your average gymnast. The gymnasts (and their parents) can decide to keep pushing, take it a notch down, or get out of the sport (there is space at many different levels). The history will say that he was Nadia's coach and there will be little space left for the names of the countless average gymnasts who trained under him.

I’m not talking average gymnasts. I’m talking people who could have been their generation’s Suni, Jordan, and Jade but were destroyed by ignorant coaching practices. The training regimens developed by competent coaches today for top gymnasts does not break even “average” athletes nor those with talent.

The attitude you’re demonstrating is outdated and naive. Proper pacing, nutrition and healthy coaching practices are why we now have athletes who are level 10 who may not even find a team to compete on in college today but could have been national team members or Olympians 30 years ago. There are athletes training HOPES and junior elite today who are being brought up by a mix of coaches who follow the old-school ways of the Karolyis and those who are taking the opposite path. Do some research into new senior gymnasts and level 10 college recruits coming out of various programs and you’ll see a stark difference between the injury history and staying power of athletes from the different styles of training.

Thank god the sport is evolving beyond the stupid attitudes displayed by every-four-year fans and apologists.

The key word is "today" - there's been a lot of research and best practices shifted. Go ahead and blame Karolyi because he was not able to look into the future and figure out how the coaching would evolve. When you train at that level, you have a different definition for "average". There are a lot of athletes who have the potential to be the next Nadia, but how many of them actually reach that level?

I took my DD to a clinic with the top club in her sport. She literally fainted during warmups because she could not keep up. Should I be blaming the coaches? We took the game one notch down and we are enjoying the experience at a different level. I am not going around blaming the coaches that my DD was not ready. If you give up when it gets tough, there is a chance that you didn't have the potential in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people here who clearly do not follow gymnastics or only recall John Tesh’s piano montages from the 90s.

Karolyi was not the hands on coach of these girls. Their talent was honed by other coaches. Read Dominique Moceanu’s book Off Balance. He was not her personal coach but would swoop in and take credit whenever a camera was around.

Nadia wanted never to be coached by him again after her time in Romania, despite what she says. Anyone who listens to the Gymcastic podcast will know about his abuse, including accusations of SA, in Romanian investigations of him.

This is not a good person.

There will always be different perspectives and you can always find one that fits with your personal bias. Are you going to claim that he is not responsible for the success of the Romanian gymnastics either? He just happened to be there and take advantage of the work of other coaches? Are you going to claim that he changed into this hands-off coach once he moved to the US? He just happened to be there at the right time when the US gymnastics became competitive? You can tell yourself all kind of stories - whatever floats your boat.

Actually there are a lot of good memoirs, including Moceanu’s, that explain how he jumped into the Romanian program and did take a lot of credit for others’ work. And it was well-known that in the 80s in the U.S. he basically poached athletes at the last minute before the Olympics, trials, nationals, etc. There are countless stories of athletes who came from their home gyms to train with him in the last year of Olympic cycles.

He took full advantage of Nadia’s success and a void in US gymnastics leadership, Cold War dynamics and the egos of U.S. officials who wanted to stick it to the Soviet bloc by flaunting him. He was a master manipulator and marketer.

As I said, you can find enough information to support your hypothesis if you ignore everything that goes against your beliefs. He was definitely a monster (in your mind).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Right… that’s why gymnasts now are healthier, happier, not abused, more mature because they can continue their sport into their 20s…

So you disagree that he did a lot for the sport?

I’m saying who knows how many gymnasts quit because he fostered an abusive USA gymnastics culture from the top down. When you think of all the talented girls and women who could’ve been something but didn’t want to deal with abuse, I’m sure the sport would be even better.

He squandered multiple generations of talent for the sake of his own selfish ego, and he conned and coerced parents into his scheme, and anyone who believes otherwise doesn’t know much about gymnastics.

Squandered talent? Have you watched the last few olympics and all the gold medals?

With all due respect, I know people who trained at the Karolyi ranch so I do know. And people absolutely knew they were tough, knew what they were getting, but sent their kids anyway.

Do you understand the depth of US talent that disappeared on an annual basis because of his abusive practices? Do you know how much deeper of a bench of 25-35 year olds we might have had in the last few Olympic cycles had he not broken them when they were just 10, 11 or 12 years old? How clueless are you about gymnastics behind the 5 women you see on tv every 4 years?

When you are talking about high-level gymnastics, you are not looking at how many average gymnasts you can develop (how deep the bench is), you are looking at how many are truly competitive. A training regimen developed for top gymnasts will break your average gymnast. The gymnasts (and their parents) can decide to keep pushing, take it a notch down, or get out of the sport (there is space at many different levels). The history will say that he was Nadia's coach and there will be little space left for the names of the countless average gymnasts who trained under him.

I’m not talking average gymnasts. I’m talking people who could have been their generation’s Suni, Jordan, and Jade but were destroyed by ignorant coaching practices. The training regimens developed by competent coaches today for top gymnasts does not break even “average” athletes nor those with talent.

The attitude you’re demonstrating is outdated and naive. Proper pacing, nutrition and healthy coaching practices are why we now have athletes who are level 10 who may not even find a team to compete on in college today but could have been national team members or Olympians 30 years ago. There are athletes training HOPES and junior elite today who are being brought up by a mix of coaches who follow the old-school ways of the Karolyis and those who are taking the opposite path. Do some research into new senior gymnasts and level 10 college recruits coming out of various programs and you’ll see a stark difference between the injury history and staying power of athletes from the different styles of training.

Thank god the sport is evolving beyond the stupid attitudes displayed by every-four-year fans and apologists.

So… he’s a bad person because he coached in a different time when the training standards, and the sport itself really, were fundamentally different than they are today?

Do you hold all professionals from different eras to the same standards? Are you prepared for the backlash against your own job someday when your profession and its associated standards inevitably “evolve”?

This is an absurd argument.

[Anonymous]

He was a monster

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He did a lot for gymnastics.

Right… that’s why gymnasts now are healthier, happier, not abused, more mature because they can continue their sport into their 20s…

So you disagree that he did a lot for the sport?

I’m saying who knows how many gymnasts quit because he fostered an abusive USA gymnastics culture from the top down. When you think of all the talented girls and women who could’ve been something but didn’t want to deal with abuse, I’m sure the sport would be even better.

He squandered multiple generations of talent for the sake of his own selfish ego, and he conned and coerced parents into his scheme, and anyone who believes otherwise doesn’t know much about gymnastics.

Squandered talent? Have you watched the last few olympics and all the gold medals?

With all due respect, I know people who trained at the Karolyi ranch so I do know. And people absolutely knew they were tough, knew what they were getting, but sent their kids anyway.

Do you understand the depth of US talent that disappeared on an annual basis because of his abusive practices? Do you know how much deeper of a bench of 25-35 year olds we might have had in the last few Olympic cycles had he not broken them when they were just 10, 11 or 12 years old? How clueless are you about gymnastics behind the 5 women you see on tv every 4 years?

When you are talking about high-level gymnastics, you are not looking at how many average gymnasts you can develop (how deep the bench is), you are looking at how many are truly competitive. A training regimen developed for top gymnasts will break your average gymnast. The gymnasts (and their parents) can decide to keep pushing, take it a notch down, or get out of the sport (there is space at many different levels). The history will say that he was Nadia's coach and there will be little space left for the names of the countless average gymnasts who trained under him.

I’m not talking average gymnasts. I’m talking people who could have been their generation’s Suni, Jordan, and Jade but were destroyed by ignorant coaching practices. The training regimens developed by competent coaches today for top gymnasts does not break even “average” athletes nor those with talent.

The attitude you’re demonstrating is outdated and naive. Proper pacing, nutrition and healthy coaching practices are why we now have athletes who are level 10 who may not even find a team to compete on in college today but could have been national team members or Olympians 30 years ago. There are athletes training HOPES and junior elite today who are being brought up by a mix of coaches who follow the old-school ways of the Karolyis and those who are taking the opposite path. Do some research into new senior gymnasts and level 10 college recruits coming out of various programs and you’ll see a stark difference between the injury history and staying power of athletes from the different styles of training.

Thank god the sport is evolving beyond the stupid attitudes displayed by every-four-year fans and apologists.

So… he’s a bad person because he coached in a different time when the training standards, and the sport itself really, were fundamentally different than they are today?

Do you hold all professionals from different eras to the same standards? Are you prepared for the backlash against your own job someday when your profession and its associated standards inevitably “evolve”?

This is an absurd argument.

I absolutely hold people’s past behavior to a modern standard. Slaveholders don’t get a pass just because everybody else did it. Child abusers don’t get a pass just because hitting your kid used to be normal. Corporeal punishment at schools might have been effective but it doesn’t mean we should celebrate it today.

The standards have evolved and if someone’s behavior was abusive at the time and it is abusive now, it does. Not. Matter. What the results were or are.

Monster. Full stop.

Apologists, you are not welcome here.