How to change Big Law culture?

[Anonymous]

Take a 50% pay cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's sounds like OP's spouse is a litigator. I wouldn't be confident that her DH's life would materially prove just by leaving big law. Opposing counsel sucks and makes life miserable, even if you're litigating for the government. It's also not super easy for a litigator to move in house.

I'm a litigator and government is so so so much better. Though I was never an equity partner. Just a PINO.

In big law, I often said I would do half the work for half the pay. I do about half the work now for a quarter of the pay, and its still worth it.

[Anonymous]

You can’t. You either adapt or leave. Most of us who have left don’t regret it for a second, but I know people who stay and are happy. Not many but they do exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - DH does not make anywhere near 7 figure salary. Partners at his firm make somewhere between $600,000-+$9 million (at the high end). But the majority probably make around $800,000 or so. Obviously a lot of money but definitely not a million plus a year like everyone seems to think.

So either it's not really Big Law or he's not an equity partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - DH does not make anywhere near 7 figure salary. Partners at his firm make somewhere between $600,000-+$9 million (at the high end). But the majority probably make around $800,000 or so. Obviously a lot of money but definitely not a million plus a year like everyone seems to think.

So either it's not really Big Law or he's not an equity partner.

NP- There are more and more non-equity partners in law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to get flamed but it’s a good question. Escalating Billable hours and endless nights/weekends/vacations working were not always how it worked at Biglaw. To a certain extent people can draw their own boundaries but that’s not going to solve the overall issue of overwork. If you want a different culture you’re going to have to leave Biglaw (and likely make less money).

Another thing is that top lawschool grads are often very uncreative, hierarchical, conventional and risk adverse. They cannot see any path other than the Biglaw firm. So those characteristics produce an environment where everyone feels they need to bow and scrape and prove themselves by making people above them happy.

Those few Biglaw associates who are more entrepreneurial and creative will get out quickly and go into business or in house for something more interesting. I know one who only made it a year in Biglaw and then left to start his own business and is now very rich and works normal-ish hours. Another who joined a really interesting and high profile trafe association instead of going for partner (which he likely would have made).

This is such an informative and helpful post about Big Law. Thank you for this, PP.

I will add that many who leave Big Law for government or in house jobs seem to come from families with money. They work super hard for three to four years, build up experience and contacts and then leave mostly to work in government since this is DC. Still not exactly creative types when I think about it. But they usually have an inheritance coming their way. People without this tend to stick it out more. Maybe they have to.

OP - I think this is a big thing too. DH grew up very solidly middle class. He is the first person in his family (and extended family) who has this type of job or makes this type of salary. He had to pay for undergrad and law school himself. There is no inheritance no help from his parents.

This is a BS excuse. I also grew up "solidly middle class" with no inheritance or family help. Self-funded law school.

I make a very decent salary of 200k/yr in an in-house job where I have a lot of flexibility and independence in a niche area. I could make closer to 300k but chose to work 30 hr work weeks to maximize flexibility and time with my kids when they are young. DH has a similar job in anoth field making a little less (180k).

We have a nice house with great public schools, can afford a couple nice vacations a year including some international travel, feel good about college savings and retirement, and have great work-life balance. Coming from MC backgrounds without family help I think we've done well and are giving our kids a better life (zero college loans, better schools, more travel and activities) while also being present and involved.

We cannot afford: a house that costs over a million, private school, a vacation home, first class anything, to pay for med school or law school for kids, certain upgrades to lifestyle like a nanny into school ages or very expensive date nights or the nicest clothes and tech.

It's a trade off. I did 2 years of Big Law out if school and it wasn't for me so I used it to pay off loans and moved in-house, then lived frugally until I had kids so we had a big cushion that allowed me to go PT. I "have it all" in that I have a well-paying, rewarding, and stable job, plus kids and time to spend with them. We have plenty of money for an UMC lifestyle and will have a paid off home and 4-5 million in retirement accounts by the time we're 58. We're happy and healthy and our kids are too.

Anyone who tells you they "have" to stay in Big Law for decades because they can't afford to do anything else is either lying or really bad with money. Lots of people (most) put in 5 years or so and then bail for a perfectly well-paying job that doesn't make them miserable. Firms are structured to support this and my firm helped me find my first job after I left (with a client) because it is in their interest to have alums with good relationships in the industries they serve. I also used my firm network to find my next job and currently work for a GC who I overlapped with in Big Law.

I have little patience for people who act like making a million a year while working 80 hour weeks and abandoning their family is the same as risking your life in the local coal mine -- no other options and I'm just trying to support my family, boo hoo.

Nope. If you can get a Big Law job out of law school you have the education and ability to get a different kind of job that still pays well enough elsewhere. You just don't want to. You are NOT a victim of anything.

+10000

I could have written this myself, down to the salaries except I never did big law and thus am still paying loans. I pay for stuff for my parents and siblings, no inheritance for me. We have a great life and I feel fortunate to have the choices I do. Your DH has a ton of choices too and should take a closer look at them if your family is unhappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - DH does not make anywhere near 7 figure salary. Partners at his firm make somewhere between $600,000-+$9 million (at the high end). But the majority probably make around $800,000 or so. Obviously a lot of money but definitely not a million plus a year like everyone seems to think.

oh right, no way you can survive on less than 600k.

[Anonymous]

Life is about tradeoffs. Figure out if you can live with your spouse making a lot less money, and if you can and it's important to you, then tell that to him. Just be sure that you really are prepared for a very different lifestyle in which he spends much more time with you, but you can't afford to do the same things that you can afford to now without even giving it a second thought, a life in which money is a much bigger source of stress and tension.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to get flamed but it’s a good question. Escalating Billable hours and endless nights/weekends/vacations working were not always how it worked at Biglaw. To a certain extent people can draw their own boundaries but that’s not going to solve the overall issue of overwork. If you want a different culture you’re going to have to leave Biglaw (and likely make less money).

Another thing is that top lawschool grads are often very uncreative, hierarchical, conventional and risk adverse. They cannot see any path other than the Biglaw firm. So those characteristics produce an environment where everyone feels they need to bow and scrape and prove themselves by making people above them happy.

Those few Biglaw associates who are more entrepreneurial and creative will get out quickly and go into business or in house for something more interesting. I know one who only made it a year in Biglaw and then left to start his own business and is now very rich and works normal-ish hours. Another who joined a really interesting and high profile trafe association instead of going for partner (which he likely would have made).

This is such an informative and helpful post about Big Law. Thank you for this, PP.

I will add that many who leave Big Law for government or in house jobs seem to come from families with money. They work super hard for three to four years, build up experience and contacts and then leave mostly to work in government since this is DC. Still not exactly creative types when I think about it. But they usually have an inheritance coming their way. People without this tend to stick it out more. Maybe they have to.

OP - I think this is a big thing too. DH grew up very solidly middle class. He is the first person in his family (and extended family) who has this type of job or makes this type of salary. He had to pay for undergrad and law school himself. There is no inheritance no help from his parents.

This is a BS excuse. I also grew up "solidly middle class" with no inheritance or family help. Self-funded law school.

I make a very decent salary of 200k/yr in an in-house job where I have a lot of flexibility and independence in a niche area. I could make closer to 300k but chose to work 30 hr work weeks to maximize flexibility and time with my kids when they are young. DH has a similar job in anoth field making a little less (180k).

We have a nice house with great public schools, can afford a couple nice vacations a year including some international travel, feel good about college savings and retirement, and have great work-life balance. Coming from MC backgrounds without family help I think we've done well and are giving our kids a better life (zero college loans, better schools, more travel and activities) while also being present and involved.

We cannot afford: a house that costs over a million, private school, a vacation home, first class anything, to pay for med school or law school for kids, certain upgrades to lifestyle like a nanny into school ages or very expensive date nights or the nicest clothes and tech.

It's a trade off. I did 2 years of Big Law out if school and it wasn't for me so I used it to pay off loans and moved in-house, then lived frugally until I had kids so we had a big cushion that allowed me to go PT. I "have it all" in that I have a well-paying, rewarding, and stable job, plus kids and time to spend with them. We have plenty of money for an UMC lifestyle and will have a paid off home and 4-5 million in retirement accounts by the time we're 58. We're happy and healthy and our kids are too.

Anyone who tells you they "have" to stay in Big Law for decades because they can't afford to do anything else is either lying or really bad with money. Lots of people (most) put in 5 years or so and then bail for a perfectly well-paying job that doesn't make them miserable. Firms are structured to support this and my firm helped me find my first job after I left (with a client) because it is in their interest to have alums with good relationships in the industries they serve. I also used my firm network to find my next job and currently work for a GC who I overlapped with in Big Law.

I have little patience for people who act like making a million a year while working 80 hour weeks and abandoning their family is the same as risking your life in the local coal mine -- no other options and I'm just trying to support my family, boo hoo.

Nope. If you can get a Big Law job out of law school you have the education and ability to get a different kind of job that still pays well enough elsewhere. You just don't want to. You are NOT a victim of anything.

+10000

I could have written this myself, down to the salaries except I never did big law and thus am still paying loans. I pay for stuff for my parents and siblings, no inheritance for me. We have a great life and I feel fortunate to have the choices I do. Your DH has a ton of choices too and should take a closer look at them if your family is unhappy.

Same HHI, same sort of situation between my DW and I. It really is the best life IMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - DH does not make anywhere near 7 figure salary. Partners at his firm make somewhere between $600,000-+$9 million (at the high end). But the majority probably make around $800,000 or so. Obviously a lot of money but definitely not a million plus a year like everyone seems to think.

oh right, no way you can survive on less than 600k.

Oh, I see. You can't afford to outsource etc because he's not actually making 1mm a year. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - DH does not make anywhere near 7 figure salary. Partners at his firm make somewhere between $600,000-+$9 million (at the high end). But the majority probably make around $800,000 or so. Obviously a lot of money but definitely not a million plus a year like everyone seems to think.

So either it's not really Big Law or he's not an equity partner.

NP- There are more and more non-equity partners in law.

+1. The top lawyers get greedier and greedier and do even less work themselves.

[Anonymous]

Another Biglaw partner here.

If your DH is routinely getting emergencies dumped on him Friday evenings for Monday AM deliverable, that’s a him problem. Could be not setting boundaries with clients, could be not managing/anticipating work appropriately, could be he hasn’t developed a good team. Probably all three.

In any case, that kind of thing is exceedingly rare for most partners. Sure it happens, but like 2x a year. Same w/ the horror stories you hear about “ruined vacations” and such. In weekends, I work on average about 2 hours on Sunday—mostly assigning work and entering time. I’ll take an occasional call on vacation or spend a morning on my laptop if something is truly urgent, but that’s it. Have never once in a decent number of years had to entirely miss anything.

I’ve learned over the years that most of the people this happens to like it that way… they’re the same ones when you ask (as a regular human) “hey, how’s it going?” will respond with some reference to how busy they are. 🤮

Total weirdos.

[Anonymous]

Future generations of AI will change the culture. The drudgery and drafting is a perfect fit for AI, not the current generation but
I’d expect in 5 years the capability will be there. The industry will resist it as long as they can but smart firms will start using it to cut costs, increase profits. They’ll start at the entry level work first so clients will still face time with the human lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing you just want to vent. There is no changing BigLaw. Clients pay huge money to use them, and as such expect top tier and rapid service. If your spouse can't take it then he needs to get out.

OP here - yes it is a vent. And DH has been doing this a LONG time and is still chugging along. He is a partner at a large law firm. It is just frustrating that there is ALWAYS a stupid emergency that seems like a non-emergency that has to be taken care of now.

He’s a PARTNER and you’re complaining?? What a biotch🙄

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are probably afforded a very comfortable life as a result of your husband being a partner at Big Law. lots of people work just as hard or harder and don't have a fraction to show for it as your husband. He can move inhouse and take a pay cut which I'm sure you don't want him to do.

OP - Well sure he makes a lot of money but I don't think the stress is worth it. I would be FINE with him leaving for an in house job. He seems to think most in house jobs doing what he does has the same amount of stress for less money so he might as well stay in big law.

I work full time as well, make 6 figures. On top of that I am the default parent 99% of the time to 3 young kids and keep our house together (bills, maintenance, laundry, food, etc).

So you have the money to outsource everything and or quit and or change jobs. What a complainer.