Dartmouth death

[Anonymous]

It wouldn’t really make sense for the to be a hazing incident during sophomore summer when only sophomores are on campus. Everyone is the same year and so there’s no one older to be hazing the the sophomores.

Agree. Based on the available data, this sounds like a tragic instance of substance abuse. Whether or not that occurs more frequently at Dartmouth or rural schools or schools with a Greek culture is a reasonable and appropriate question to ask. But hazing isn't just alcohol consumption -- it involves coercion, and humiliation and abuse, and often rites of initiation (that's not the implication - that's the definition), and it's hard to imagine that happening among the all-sophomore student body at Dartmouth for sophomore summer. There's a lazy and misleading tendency among some DCUMers to use the term "hazing" as a synonym for drinking at a fraternity. And the triumphal "these two hazing incidents (sic) prove I was right about Dartmouth all along!" comments about fatal incidents about which the posters know virtually nothing are both embarrassing and distasteful.

[Anonymous]

MIT has dorms too. Not everyone is in a Greek house.

[Anonymous]

Dartmouth seems to have a lot of student deaths from substance abuse & suicide.

Neighbor's child is now a junior or senior at Dartmouth. Complained during first two years that the student deaths were too much to bear at times. Some occurred on campus, some occurred off campus.

Dartmouth's drinking culture is not a secret. Has been that way for many decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It wouldn’t really make sense for the to be a hazing incident during sophomore summer when only sophomores are on campus. Everyone is the same year and so there’s no one older to be hazing the the sophomores.

Agree. Based on the available data, this sounds like a tragic instance of substance abuse. Whether or not that occurs more frequently at Dartmouth or rural schools or schools with a Greek culture is a reasonable and appropriate question to ask. But hazing isn't just alcohol consumption -- it involves coercion, and humiliation and abuse, and often rites of initiation (that's not the implication - that's the definition), and it's hard to imagine that happening among the all-sophomore student body at Dartmouth for sophomore summer. There's a lazy and misleading tendency among some DCUMers to use the term "hazing" as a synonym for drinking at a fraternity. And the triumphal "these two hazing incidents (sic) prove I was right about Dartmouth all along!" comments about fatal incidents about which the posters know virtually nothing are both embarrassing and distasteful.

Do frats just cease to exist during the D-plan summer? I could imagine hazing and issues from partying would be worse in the summertime with all your college friends.

[Anonymous]

But hazing isn't just alcohol consumption ... and it's hard to imagine that happening among the all-sophomore student body at Dartmouth for sophomore summer.

Do frats just cease to exist during the D-plan summer? I could imagine hazing and issues from partying would be worse in the summertime with all your college friends.

Do you understand the meaning of hazing? Sophomore summer is when the only people in the fraternity with you are those with whom you pledged. Hazing isn't an issue. There may be more partying at Dartmouth during sophomore summer -- both in fraternities/sororities and outside of them -- but that's not hazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But hazing isn't just alcohol consumption ... and it's hard to imagine that happening among the all-sophomore student body at Dartmouth for sophomore summer.

Do frats just cease to exist during the D-plan summer? I could imagine hazing and issues from partying would be worse in the summertime with all your college friends.

Do you understand the meaning of hazing? Sophomore summer is when the only people in the fraternity with you are those with whom you pledged. Hazing isn't an issue. There may be more partying at Dartmouth during sophomore summer -- both in fraternities/sororities and outside of them -- but that's not hazing.

I went to UT. Frats hazed even after you were initiated. You’d see juniors come to class with wheel barrows and hoochie mama shorts, because they weren’t allowed pants and backpacks during the winter for whatever reason. Also college men see stupid, it doesn’t have to be hazing for someone to try to force you to do things while drunk.

[Anonymous]

Dartmouth seems to have a lot of student deaths from substance abuse & suicide.

Neighbor's child is now a junior or senior at Dartmouth. Complained during the first two years that the student deaths were too much to bear at times. Some occurred on campus, some occurred off campus.

Not really. Dartmouth usually has had one student suicide every year or two. That spiked during the pandemic - there were three Class of 2024 freshman suicides during the first year of the pandemic (one of which was at home) -- related not to fraternities but isolation -- and a few in the subsequent years. The campus was outraged, the administration relaxed its COVID policies, and increased mental health resources. It made an impression on students there at the time, as well it should have. Might have drawn more attention than it would have in a larger or more urban school.

Absent more data -- and again, prior to the pandemic the suicide rate among Dartmouth students was low -- not sure the (unique) pandemic experience/policies, or anecdotal reports about one school, say anything particularly meaningful about how one college's suicide rate compares to other's (eg Princeton also had an uptick in suicides in 2022). But don't let that stop you.

[Anonymous]

I went to UT. Frats hazed even after you were initiated. You’d see juniors come to class with wheel barrows and hoochie mama shorts, because they weren’t allowed pants and backpacks during the winter for whatever reason. Also college men see stupid, it doesn’t have to be hazing for someone to try to force you to do things while drunk.

Except that the discussion, and it's a serious one involving a fatality so we should treat it with the care it warrants, is about Dartmouth, not about UT and the (different, Southern) frat culture when you went there. That's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate generally, and that's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate during sophomore summer. Most people who drink to excess at Dartmouth do so by choice, not by coercion. Individual fraternities may create an environment that fosters excessive drinking, and/or fail to protect the safety of members and guests, and for that the college will presumably hold them accountable. And obviously authorities should look into any meaningful evidence of whether coercion was involved in this case. But unless any comes to light, to blithely assert that excessive drinking at the deceased's fraternity inevitably involved "hazing" is sloppy, irresponsible and potentially libelous but for DCUM's cloak of anonymity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I went to UT. Frats hazed even after you were initiated. You’d see juniors come to class with wheel barrows and hoochie mama shorts, because they weren’t allowed pants and backpacks during the winter for whatever reason. Also college men see stupid, it doesn’t have to be hazing for someone to try to force you to do things while drunk.

Except that the discussion, and it's a serious one involving a fatality so we should treat it with the care it warrants, is about Dartmouth, not about UT and the (different, Southern) frat culture when you went there. That's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate generally, and that's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate during sophomore summer. Most people who drink to excess at Dartmouth do so by choice, not by coercion. Individual fraternities may create an environment that fosters excessive drinking, and/or fail to protect the safety of members and guests, and for that the college will presumably hold them accountable. And obviously authorities should look into any meaningful evidence of whether coercion was involved in this case. But unless any comes to light, to blithely assert that excessive drinking at the deceased's fraternity inevitably involved "hazing" is sloppy, irresponsible and potentially libelous but for DCUM's cloak of anonymity.

Heavy drinking is largely a social phenomena from college environments and it being illegal for people under 21. It is, many times, social pressure that starts students heavily drinking even if they won't admit it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I went to UT. Frats hazed even after you were initiated. You’d see juniors come to class with wheel barrows and hoochie mama shorts, because they weren’t allowed pants and backpacks during the winter for whatever reason. Also college men see stupid, it doesn’t have to be hazing for someone to try to force you to do things while drunk.

Except that the discussion, and it's a serious one involving a fatality so we should treat it with the care it warrants, is about Dartmouth, not about UT and the (different, Southern) frat culture when you went there. That's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate generally, and that's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate during sophomore summer. Most people who drink to excess at Dartmouth do so by choice, not by coercion. Individual fraternities may create an environment that fosters excessive drinking, and/or fail to protect the safety of members and guests, and for that the college will presumably hold them accountable. And obviously authorities should look into any meaningful evidence of whether coercion was involved in this case. But unless any comes to light, to blithely assert that excessive drinking at the deceased's fraternity inevitably involved "hazing" is sloppy, irresponsible and potentially libelous but for DCUM's cloak of anonymity.

Not PP. And now we move the goal post in classic DCUM fashion...

[Anonymous]

It was a horrible accident. Yes, there had been drinking, but not hazing. He didn’t know how to swim but fell in the water and no one saw. My child knows him and says he was a wonderful ,bright, kind person. His friends are devastated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was a horrible accident. Yes, there had been drinking, but not hazing. He didn’t know how to swim but fell in the water and no one saw. My child knows him and says he was a wonderful ,bright, kind person. His friends are devastated.

Thank you for sharing this. Perhaps it will those who are trying to sensationalize this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pro-Greek responses here do your case no favors. You sounds like an ass.

I’m embarrassed reading them and hope they are young kids somehow. I posted about my positive experiences and kids that thankfully have no interest. The lack of tact on this thread is staggering.

DP. Totally agree. I was in a sorority, and enjoyed it, but my DC had zero interest in rushing. He's a bit of an introvert at a heavily Greek university and I did have a bit of fear he would feel left out socially, but, on the other hand, I was greatly relieved that he didn't do it. It's worked out so well -- he's a rising Junior with a great group of friends and is having a wonderful college experience.

It seems a lot of kids are attracted to the Greek system because of what they see on social media, and from what I hear, things have changed quite a bit, and not for the better. When I was in college, the frats were known to haze, but it just wasn't done at the sororities. On DC's campus, the sororities are as likely to be thrown off campus as the guys for hazing, and it's not tightened enforcement -- it's the result of kids being injured because of excessive drinking, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I went to UT. Frats hazed even after you were initiated. You’d see juniors come to class with wheel barrows and hoochie mama shorts, because they weren’t allowed pants and backpacks during the winter for whatever reason. Also college men see stupid, it doesn’t have to be hazing for someone to try to force you to do things while drunk.

Except that the discussion, and it's a serious one involving a fatality so we should treat it with the care it warrants, is about Dartmouth, not about UT and the (different, Southern) frat culture when you went there. That's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate generally, and that's not how Dartmouth fraternities operate during sophomore summer. Most people who drink to excess at Dartmouth do so by choice, not by coercion. Individual fraternities may create an environment that fosters excessive drinking, and/or fail to protect the safety of members and guests, and for that the college will presumably hold them accountable. And obviously authorities should look into any meaningful evidence of whether coercion was involved in this case. But unless any comes to light, to blithely assert that excessive drinking at the deceased's fraternity inevitably involved "hazing" is sloppy, irresponsible and potentially libelous but for DCUM's cloak of anonymity.

I generally agree, but I would say that's not helpful to Dartmouth's reputation overall. I'm old, and Dartmouth has had a reputation as a place that tolerates, if not encourages, excessive drinking for as long as I can remember. It was always attributed to its location -- dark, cold, and isolated. For Dartmouth's sake, it would be better to be able to lay the blame at the feet of the fraternities. That would be a lot easier to do something about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It was a horrible accident. Yes, there had been drinking, but not hazing. He didn’t know how to swim but fell in the water and no one saw. My child knows him and says he was a wonderful ,bright, kind person. His friends are devastated.

Thank you for sharing this. Perhaps it will those who are trying to sensationalize this.

No one is trying to sensationalize anything. The news headlines say there was an anonymous call about hazing and that the police are investigating. No one knows bc we weren’t there. If he fell in when others were around and no one saw or helped him then that is tragic and a problem too.