Organic Chemistry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

I know Gonzaga offers it.

If you Google the description it says that the course is "a fundamental overview to the topic" and introduces "major themes." It's not at all on the level of a traditional college-level orgo course.

But how great for kids to have that foundation and precursor before getting to college, especially if they love chem.

Sort of? I took a class like this in high school and it solidified that I wanted to take more advanced science courses in college. But it really wasn't a help in college courses as the high school class really had only covered the easy content, which was easy in college too, leaving all of the hard stuff still to learn. I didn't think it gave me much of a leg up at all.

They make ibuprofen from scratch...so pretty cool, Debbie Downer.

Did they figure out the method indepdently, or follow a recipe like in home ec?

They followed a recipe and have to assume that the steps made ibuprofen like instructions said it would make because high schools don't have the equipment to characterize the product. College courses would then have the students run an NMR and perform other analysis of the product to confirm the reaction worked, but that's not possible at a high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way for kids to prepare for this class???? If their HS doesn't offer it?

Or is there a "Khan Academy" of O-chem that helps?

Any suggestions? Audit the class at NOVA Community College? My DD has to take orgo next year at UVA. Some exposure, over the summer, before taking the class would be helpful

Kahn Academy DOES have Org content that they can review in the summer. That's what my son did.

Be careful about that UMD for example only allows 1 gateway class once to be repeated and that includes audited college classes. Your kid might need to drop or repeat another gateway depending on their major.

The problem with OCHEM at UMD is only 50 percent of the class earns As or Bs- it’s a weeder for sure.

[Anonymous]

I took organic chemistry in college as an elective (unneeded for any potential major I considered). It was fine and the labs were an enjoyable exercise.

[Anonymous]

I found physics much harder as a pre-med. I think it depends largely on learning style.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PhD chemist turned patent lawyer here. Orgo is a beast, until you get to Quantum Mechanics….ooof!

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of thinking and visualization that is needed to do well in orgo and thinking it’s memorization instead of problem solving. I’m horrible at memorizing things, so it was awful for me.

I think I’d do much better at orgo (let’s not discuss quantum mechanics) now, knowing that.

When I was in grad school, things started clicking a lot more - and my ability to mentally visualize structures in 3-D really improved when I had to do it in group theory and crystallography.

Ha, I find this funny. I'm also a patent attorney, but was formerly an organic chemist. My absolute favorite courses in undergrad were advanced orgo and a graduate-level stereochemistry class. My third favorite class was physical chemistry, which I liked so much I added a minor in physics just so I could get into a graduate-level quantum mechanics course. Those classes were all so fun.

When I was young there was a saying that the law schools were full of wannabe doctors who dropped out of organic chem. There was certainly something to that. Of course, there are obviously lawyers who could pass it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way for kids to prepare for this class???? If their HS doesn't offer it?

Or is there a "Khan Academy" of O-chem that helps?

Any suggestions? Audit the class at NOVA Community College? My DD has to take orgo next year at UVA. Some exposure, over the summer, before taking the class would be helpful

Kahn Academy DOES have Org content that they can review in the summer. That's what my son did.

Be careful about that UMD for example only allows 1 gateway class once to be repeated and that includes audited college classes. Your kid might need to drop or repeat another gateway depending on their major.

The problem with OCHEM at UMD is only 50 percent of the class earns As or Bs- it’s a weeder for sure.

What does this mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and Groton all offer it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way for kids to prepare for this class???? If their HS doesn't offer it?

Or is there a "Khan Academy" of O-chem that helps?

Any suggestions? Audit the class at NOVA Community College? My DD has to take orgo next year at UVA. Some exposure, over the summer, before taking the class would be helpful

Kahn Academy DOES have Org content that they can review in the summer. That's what my son did.

Be careful about that UMD for example only allows 1 gateway class once to be repeated and that includes audited college classes. Your kid might need to drop or repeat another gateway depending on their major.

The problem with OCHEM at UMD is only 50 percent of the class earns As or Bs- it’s a weeder for sure.

What does this mean?

It means you you can’t declare the major. My DD started in Letters and Sciences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and Groton all offer it.

Gonzaga's in good company.

[Anonymous]

Organic chemistry is a cake walk compared to Physical Chemistry. But Organic is the highest level chem class most non-chem majors ever take. It’s not hard if you can visualize a three-D puzzle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PhD chemist turned patent lawyer here. Orgo is a beast, until you get to Quantum Mechanics….ooof!

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of thinking and visualization that is needed to do well in orgo and thinking it’s memorization instead of problem solving. I’m horrible at memorizing things, so it was awful for me.

I think I’d do much better at orgo (let’s not discuss quantum mechanics) now, knowing that.

When I was in grad school, things started clicking a lot more - and my ability to mentally visualize structures in 3-D really improved when I had to do it in group theory and crystallography.

Ha, I find this funny. I'm also a patent attorney, but was formerly an organic chemist. My absolute favorite courses in undergrad were advanced orgo and a graduate-level stereochemistry class. My third favorite class was physical chemistry, which I liked so much I added a minor in physics just so I could get into a graduate-level quantum mechanics course. Those classes were all so fun.

When I was young there was a saying that the law schools were full of wannabe doctors who dropped out of organic chem. There was certainly something to that. Of course, there are obviously lawyers who could pass it.

First PP here - I realize you meant to throw shade my and the second PP’s way, but keep in mind that chemistry patent attorneys usually earn a Master’s or (more likely) a PhD in chemistry and then go on to law school.

Pre-med students, at least at my undergrad, rarely majored in chemistry because their GPA wouldn’t be high enough to be competitive for med school. Because it got worse after orgo.

Also, I can’t think of a single person I know who went to grad school in chemistry or biology who wanted to go to medical school, but couldn’t get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

This! Problem sets, electron pushing, notes, more problem sets, more electron pushing, notes repeat

A lot of kids just don’t know how to study or think through problems

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

Yes to your question. Our DD took regular Chem, no APs, basic honors math, no Calc, in HS and aced Organic Chem at VT. She is super smart but was involved in a HS extra curricular that took most of her focus. She ended up loving the challenge of Chem in college and graduated with Biochem/Chem majors, worked at an HYP Ivy for post grad and is looking at top PhD programs.

It can be done but there has to be an interest. Most figure it out after the first exam! So many fellow students were doing it just to get into med school. Those kids are gunning for As and will take it more than once if necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

Yes to your question. Our DD took regular Chem, no APs, basic honors math, no Calc, in HS and aced Organic Chem at VT. She is super smart but was involved in a HS extra curricular that took most of her focus. She ended up loving the challenge of Chem in college and graduated with Biochem/Chem majors, worked at an HYP Ivy for post grad and is looking at top PhD programs.

It can be done but there has to be an interest. Most figure it out after the first exam! So many fellow students were doing it just to get into med school. Those kids are gunning for As and will take it more than once if necessary.

Also agree with other statements that most pre-meds go for the easier STEM majors like bio but they all have to take a few Chem classes and definitely Organic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

This! Problem sets, electron pushing, notes, more problem sets, more electron pushing, notes repeat

A lot of kids just don’t know how to study or think through problems

This is why most chemical engineering students don't find organic or physical chemistry all that hard. You just have to be willing to 1) put in the work, and 2) tackle the problem. The 1 thing that engineering school teaches people is how to look at problem, try to solve it, and not be afraid to go back and try again for a 2nd, 3rd, or 10th time.