Organic Chemistry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

I know Gonzaga offers it.

If you Google the description it says that the course is "a fundamental overview to the topic" and introduces "major themes." It's not at all on the level of a traditional college-level orgo course.

But how great for kids to have that foundation and precursor before getting to college, especially if they love chem.

Sort of? I took a class like this in high school and it solidified that I wanted to take more advanced science courses in college. But it really wasn't a help in college courses as the high school class really had only covered the easy content, which was easy in college too, leaving all of the hard stuff still to learn. I didn't think it gave me much of a leg up at all.

[Anonymous]

It is definitely a weed-out class.

Although a professor got fired recently because his whiny students whined it was too hard.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PhD chemist turned patent lawyer here. Orgo is a beast, until you get to Quantum Mechanics….ooof!

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of thinking and visualization that is needed to do well in orgo and thinking it’s memorization instead of problem solving. I’m horrible at memorizing things, so it was awful for me.

I think I’d do much better at orgo (let’s not discuss quantum mechanics) now, knowing that.

When I was in grad school, things started clicking a lot more - and my ability to mentally visualize structures in 3-D really improved when I had to do it in group theory and crystallography.

Ha, I find this funny. I'm also a patent attorney, but was formerly an organic chemist. My absolute favorite courses in undergrad were advanced orgo and a graduate-level stereochemistry class. My third favorite class was physical chemistry, which I liked so much I added a minor in physics just so I could get into a graduate-level quantum mechanics course. Those classes were all so fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way for kids to prepare for this class???? If their HS doesn't offer it?

Or is there a "Khan Academy" of O-chem that helps?

Any suggestions? Audit the class at NOVA Community College? My DD has to take orgo next year at UVA. Some exposure, over the summer, before taking the class would be helpful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

That's an interesting way to describe it and fits my kid to a T. I was worried about her taking Org, but she actually really enjoyed it and excelled in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

I know Gonzaga offers it.

If you Google the description it says that the course is "a fundamental overview to the topic" and introduces "major themes." It's not at all on the level of a traditional college-level orgo course.

But how great for kids to have that foundation and precursor before getting to college, especially if they love chem.

Sort of? I took a class like this in high school and it solidified that I wanted to take more advanced science courses in college. But it really wasn't a help in college courses as the high school class really had only covered the easy content, which was easy in college too, leaving all of the hard stuff still to learn. I didn't think it gave me much of a leg up at all.

They make ibuprofen from scratch...so pretty cool, Debbie Downer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way for kids to prepare for this class???? If their HS doesn't offer it?

Or is there a "Khan Academy" of O-chem that helps?

Any suggestions? Audit the class at NOVA Community College? My DD has to take orgo next year at UVA. Some exposure, over the summer, before taking the class would be helpful

Kahn Academy DOES have Org content that they can review in the summer. That's what my son did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

DDs HS did too. It was just basically a gently intro semester. Even with that and 5 on AP Chem, she just scraped a B in OrgoI freshman year. OrgLab was great though.
Reading some of the replies, I recognize that she preferred calculus over geometry, so maybe she too is just someone who is not good at visualizing and did not find the right way to tackle it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

Agree with this. I remember helping a pre med peer who had always gotten As in other courses basically through brute force and practice. I tried to teach him to take more time for understanding to help organize his knowledge--understand patterns and mechanisms etc, but at first he was so panicked that he didn't have a moment to spare because he could picture how long his usual strategies would take him with this content. I vividly remember when I asked him to more fully explain why a reaction worked the way it did or how one was similar to the other, he said we didn't need to know that because the professor didn't ask us to explain (which actually was also technically wrong not just strategically, because the professor did have questions that asked us to identify mechanisms, he just saw that as one more discrete thing to memorize rather than the professor laying groundwork with clues on how to solve the problem). I think the reasons my peers struggled was they didn't know that there were patterns of information that helped you think through problems that you haven't encountered before. I wasn't perfect at it--but I did fairly well and I at least knew what the enterprise *should* be. I also agree with the person who mentioned spatial thinking--I remember getting "flashes" of insight based on just picturing the problem that I would then use to help me figure it out.

[Anonymous]

It's a weeder course. I've seen it make grown students cry and change their major. My spouse has a Ph.D. in STEM and says it's the first real weeder course college kids tend to hit in a big way, and it can take a lot of students down the first time. Some people have to take it twice. No big, it happens.

I knew a person in my undergrad dorm who was pre-med, hit O Chem, had a breakdown over it one day with a huge crying jag, and became an English major. That happens, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

It's an introduction and usually significantly watered down. It's not for college credit or to test out.

But it definately helps your kid ruin the curve for a college level O chem course! When they take the real course (for a 2nd time in college) they will have a huge advantage over the regular student seeing it all for the first time

[Anonymous]

I think its perceived to be hard because of the concepts and sheer volume of material to understand and memorize. It depends on the school but at some, its considered a weed-out class. There are many students though that are able to grasp and do well on it so go in the class with a positive mind-set.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

It's an introduction and usually significantly watered down. It's not for college credit or to test out.

But it definately helps your kid ruin the curve for a college level O chem course! When they take the real course (for a 2nd time in college) they will have a huge advantage over the regular student seeing it all for the first time

I taught organic chemistry for about 5 years at the college level and don't agree with this. I have serious doubts that any high school course covers enough of the hard content to give much of a leg up. I think a community college course could make a difference, but I really doubt enough of the hard content will be covered in a high school course to make any difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

It's an introduction and usually significantly watered down. It's not for college credit or to test out.

But it definately helps your kid ruin the curve for a college level O chem course! When they take the real course (for a 2nd time in college) they will have a huge advantage over the regular student seeing it all for the first time

Definately? No. No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

I know Gonzaga offers it.

If you Google the description it says that the course is "a fundamental overview to the topic" and introduces "major themes." It's not at all on the level of a traditional college-level orgo course.

But how great for kids to have that foundation and precursor before getting to college, especially if they love chem.

Sort of? I took a class like this in high school and it solidified that I wanted to take more advanced science courses in college. But it really wasn't a help in college courses as the high school class really had only covered the easy content, which was easy in college too, leaving all of the hard stuff still to learn. I didn't think it gave me much of a leg up at all.

They make ibuprofen from scratch...so pretty cool, Debbie Downer.

Did they figure out the method indepdently, or follow a recipe like in home ec?