Organic Chemistry

[Anonymous]

Yes. My daughter did fine, and she did not do well on her SAT’s.

[Anonymous]

Potomac school offers it and teacher is phenomenal!

[Anonymous]

I found this discussion incredibly helpful. As an attorney, I never took anything STEM related beyond college freshman calculus.
My DS is pre-med at a notoriously tough STEM school and managed to get through a full year of organic chem with an A. As a result, I had doubts that O-CHEM was really as hard as its reputation. But the descriptions provided here about how best to approach it have helped me understand why he might have found it less difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PhD chemist turned patent lawyer here. Orgo is a beast, until you get to Quantum Mechanics….ooof!

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of thinking and visualization that is needed to do well in orgo and thinking it’s memorization instead of problem solving. I’m horrible at memorizing things, so it was awful for me.

I think I’d do much better at orgo (let’s not discuss quantum mechanics) now, knowing that.

When I was in grad school, things started clicking a lot more - and my ability to mentally visualize structures in 3-D really improved when I had to do it in group theory and crystallography.

I loved quantum mechanics and earned a A! Orgo, on the other hand… ooof!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

This! Problem sets, electron pushing, notes, more problem sets, more electron pushing, notes repeat

A lot of kids just don’t know how to study or think through problems

This is why most chemical engineering students don't find organic or physical chemistry all that hard. You just have to be willing to 1) put in the work, and 2) tackle the problem. The 1 thing that engineering school teaches people is how to look at problem, try to solve it, and not be afraid to go back and try again for a 2nd, 3rd, or 10th time.

My Chem E found Orgo 2 even harder and questioning the major

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

This is exactly right.

What I found is that you cannot use general categories of reactions to figure out what happens when you put X and Y together, because there are too many exceptions, and then you add in various catalysts, and it all goes to pot. Instead, what is required is being really good at stereochemistry, and having the ability to visualize objects in 3-D space. I was terrible at Organic Chem (my worst grade ever, and I have two Masters, one in molecular biology, another in bioinformatics), but had a good friend that was amazing at it. For him, it took no effort; he could visualize what the molecules looked like in 3-D space, how they fold, and what that meant for reactions. I could not, for the life of me. The vast majority of students either lack the ability like me, or have never had to think that way.

This! I took organic chemistry in college and the main challenge for me was visualizing the molecules in 3D. They are of course presented in 2D but the reactions between molecules are not happening in a one dimensional plane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

I know Gonzaga offers it.

So does Blair (MCPS).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PhD chemist turned patent lawyer here. Orgo is a beast, until you get to Quantum Mechanics….ooof!

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of thinking and visualization that is needed to do well in orgo and thinking it’s memorization instead of problem solving. I’m horrible at memorizing things, so it was awful for me.

I think I’d do much better at orgo (let’s not discuss quantum mechanics) now, knowing that.

When I was in grad school, things started clicking a lot more - and my ability to mentally visualize structures in 3-D really improved when I had to do it in group theory and crystallography.

Ha, I find this funny. I'm also a patent attorney, but was formerly an organic chemist. My absolute favorite courses in undergrad were advanced orgo and a graduate-level stereochemistry class. My third favorite class was physical chemistry, which I liked so much I added a minor in physics just so I could get into a graduate-level quantum mechanics course. Those classes were all so fun.

When I was young there was a saying that the law schools were full of wannabe doctors who dropped out of organic chem. There was certainly something to that. Of course, there are obviously lawyers who could pass it.

First PP here - I realize you meant to throw shade my and the second PP’s way, but keep in mind that chemistry patent attorneys usually earn a Master’s or (more likely) a PhD in chemistry and then go on to law school.

Pre-med students, at least at my undergrad, rarely majored in chemistry because their GPA wouldn’t be high enough to be competitive for med school. Because it got worse after orgo.

Also, I can’t think of a single person I know who went to grad school in chemistry or biology who wanted to go to medical school, but couldn’t get in.

Every patent attorney I work with in the Chem-Bio fields has a PhD (at the very least a Master’s) and the law degree. My chemical engineering boss went to Georgetown law nights and sailed through. Passed the bar with flying colors- top in his class.

My other co-worker was Caltech undergrad, Harvard law, law school while at the patent office. IP attorney, patent judge.

Scientists often make great attorneys because if their analytical minds. I scored perfect on the analytical section of the SAT—of course it didn’t count.

[Anonymous]

Organic, pchem, quantum… all fun. Wait until you learn inorganic!

[Anonymous]

DC seems to be finding physiology more difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and Groton all offer it.

Are they bringing in a Chemistry PhD/college prof to teach it? If not, it shares a name with the college course but not the substance.

[Anonymous]

Could also take it at local public in the summer if college will take transfer credits—grades usually don’t transfer to college transcript, though may still need to provide for med school applications. Still, summer vibe may have less of a competitive, gunner vibe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea if it is the hardest class, but all the Premed and a bunch of other STEM kids have to take it.

At schools where they grade on a curve, I recall a kid saying the curve was a 97/100 for an A.

It seems to aggregate a segment of college kids that care acutely about the grade they receive in that class as I guess it impacts grad school.

That's a super weird curve for orgo. Often a 40-50% will curve to an A because the content is so difficult.

I know of no grading curve set up so that half the people get A’s!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and Groton all offer it.

Are they bringing in a Chemistry PhD/college prof to teach it? If not, it shares a name with the college course but not the substance.

Can’t speak for others but Exeter has had some Chemistry PhDs teaching in the past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

This is exactly right.

What I found is that you cannot use general categories of reactions to figure out what happens when you put X and Y together, because there are too many exceptions, and then you add in various catalysts, and it all goes to pot. Instead, what is required is being really good at stereochemistry, and having the ability to visualize objects in 3-D space. I was terrible at Organic Chem (my worst grade ever, and I have two Masters, one in molecular biology, another in bioinformatics), but had a good friend that was amazing at it. For him, it took no effort; he could visualize what the molecules looked like in 3-D space, how they fold, and what that meant for reactions. I could not, for the life of me. The vast majority of students either lack the ability like me, or have never had to think that way.

This! I took organic chemistry in college and the main challenge for me was visualizing the molecules in 3D. They are of course presented in 2D but the reactions between molecules are not happening in a one dimensional plane.

this is fascinating - my DD is an artist and has always been good at visualizing shapes etc- and herself in space (watching someone swing a bat, now flip it for a leftie and make it happen etc) and she finds organic chemistry pretty easy. I’m insanely proud of her, as you can imagine- since she wasn’t a stem kid in high school but became one after a year in college and now is busting up the curve in O chem. 😊