My MIL is forcing us to pay for my FIL's nursing home because she wants to stay in their house, their only asset

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I should add that it is incredibly selfish of her that she does not want to contribute his retirement income to his care, after he worked hard to support the entire family plus her mother for decades. All because she wants to continue an unsustainable living situation for herself.

I understand you are upset OP, but back up just a bit. You are talking about an 85 year old woman who understandably doesn’t want to go to a government run nursing home, and is apparently capable enough to not have the government decide she can’t live alone and force the issue. Her husband is ailing. She is old, and probably scared, as I think we all would be. And your husband wants to help care for her. The way you phrased the way she put her husband in a nursing home (temporarily, when she herself was incapacitated) was a little harsh. I just think you need, for the sake of your marriage, to look at her with a bit more compassion than you are. That doesn’t mean she is doing the right thing! But maybe just give her some benefit of the doubt in what is undeniably a very disorienting and emotional time in her life. It’s very common for older people to want to avoid a nursing home and stay at home, and she may be thinking that her husband would have wanted to push off the time for him to go into nursing home as well, even if she isn’t going about things the right way. Her mind might also not be as sharp given her age too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I should add that it is incredibly selfish of her that she does not want to contribute his retirement income to his care, after he worked hard to support the entire family plus her mother for decades. All because she wants to continue an unsustainable living situation for herself.

I understand you are upset OP, but back up just a bit. You are talking about an 85 year old woman who understandably doesn’t want to go to a government run nursing home, and is apparently capable enough to not have the government decide she can’t live alone and force the issue. Her husband is ailing. She is old, and probably scared, as I think we all would be. And your husband wants to help care for her. The way you phrased the way she put her husband in a nursing home (temporarily, when she herself was incapacitated) was a little harsh. I just think you need, for the sake of your marriage, to look at her with a bit more compassion than you are. That doesn’t mean she is doing the right thing! But maybe just give her some benefit of the doubt in what is undeniably a very disorienting and emotional time in her life. It’s very common for older people to want to avoid a nursing home and stay at home, and she may be thinking that her husband would have wanted to push off the time for him to go into nursing home as well, even if she isn’t going about things the right way. Her mind might also not be as sharp given her age too.

+1.

I am not usually one to say "this is a husband problem" when people talk about their MIL's. But in this case it truly is. Demonizing the MIL in this scenario helps nobody.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I should add that it is incredibly selfish of her that she does not want to contribute his retirement income to his care, after he worked hard to support the entire family plus her mother for decades. All because she wants to continue an unsustainable living situation for herself.

I understand you are upset OP, but back up just a bit. You are talking about an 85 year old woman who understandably doesn’t want to go to a government run nursing home, and is apparently capable enough to not have the government decide she can’t live alone and force the issue. Her husband is ailing. She is old, and probably scared, as I think we all would be. And your husband wants to help care for her. The way you phrased the way she put her husband in a nursing home (temporarily, when she herself was incapacitated) was a little harsh. I just think you need, for the sake of your marriage, to look at her with a bit more compassion than you are. That doesn’t mean she is doing the right thing! But maybe just give her some benefit of the doubt in what is undeniably a very disorienting and emotional time in her life. It’s very common for older people to want to avoid a nursing home and stay at home, and she may be thinking that her husband would have wanted to push off the time for him to go into nursing home as well, even if she isn’t going about things the right way. Her mind might also not be as sharp given her age too.

Government does not run nursing homes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s forcing you. Your husband wants to.

The law in Germany is on the MIL‘s side. The government could go after the son if he earns more than €100k. How they enforce it overseas is another question.

Why would the German government go after the son instead of forcing the sale of the house to pay for the care? Or garnishing the father’s pension for payment?

It sounds made up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s forcing you. Your husband wants to.

The law in Germany is on the MIL‘s side. The government could go after the son if he earns more than €100k. How they enforce it overseas is another question.

Is this OP? This was from your original post: " Legally, in Germany the spouse is responsible for the medical costs and nursing home costs of the other spouse. So the guardian can force her to sell the house."

I posted this and I am not the OP. People who know German and can read legal language are clearly at an advantage over those who just speculate on DCUM. German law doesn’t require the MIL to sell her house. German law requires the AC to contribute toward the cost of AC makes more than €100k. A simple google search on legal articles revealed that. I didn’t know it before either but whatever „you“ think is fair and what the law of a country on another continent requires are two different things.

You are wrong. The German government is not "on MIL's" side.

Read this and then lecture me again. I am done with this and don’t want t o spend additional precious time on a legal matter that I don’t care about and that doesn’t affect me.

https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/gesundheit-pflege/pflege-im-heim/elternunterhalt-kinder-zahlen-erst-ab-100000-euro-jahreseinkommen-28892

From the OP:

" In recent months it turned out that his retirement income is double the amount she claims. She herself has no retirement income, having been a housewife."
" My mother-in-law refuses to give up any part of his salary, and tells us that we have to pay for it if that is what we want."

You clearly didn’t read what I sent you. If the pension of FIL isn’t enough to cover the cost of the nursing home AND leave the MIL enough to live her life, the son is on the hook. The MIL will not be forced out of her house. It is unclear whether they would enforce this on the AC living abroad. Please read and don’t give legal advice for a country whose language you don’t even speak. You’re making a fool of yourself.

[Anonymous]

Buy the house from her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s forcing you. Your husband wants to.

The law in Germany is on the MIL‘s side. The government could go after the son if he earns more than €100k. How they enforce it overseas is another question.

Is this OP? This was from your original post: " Legally, in Germany the spouse is responsible for the medical costs and nursing home costs of the other spouse. So the guardian can force her to sell the house."

I posted this and I am not the OP. People who know German and can read legal language are clearly at an advantage over those who just speculate on DCUM. German law doesn’t require the MIL to sell her house. German law requires the AC to contribute toward the cost of AC makes more than €100k. A simple google search on legal articles revealed that. I didn’t know it before either but whatever „you“ think is fair and what the law of a country on another continent requires are two different things.

You are wrong. The German government is not "on MIL's" side.

Read this and then lecture me again. I am done with this and don’t want t o spend additional precious time on a legal matter that I don’t care about and that doesn’t affect me.

https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/gesundheit-pflege/pflege-im-heim/elternunterhalt-kinder-zahlen-erst-ab-100000-euro-jahreseinkommen-28892

From the OP:

" In recent months it turned out that his retirement income is double the amount she claims. She herself has no retirement income, having been a housewife."
" My mother-in-law refuses to give up any part of his salary, and tells us that we have to pay for it if that is what we want."

You clearly didn’t read what I sent you. If the pension of FIL isn’t enough to cover the cost of the nursing home AND leave the MIL enough to live her life, the son is on the hook. The MIL will not be forced out of her house. It is unclear whether they would enforce this on the AC living abroad. Please read and don’t give legal advice for a country whose language you don’t even speak. You’re making a fool of yourself.

In your response you have assumed:
1. That the FIL's pension is not enough to cover the cost of a nursing home and leave the MIL enough to live her life, though it is twice what OP once thought.
2.That I don't know the law or speak German.

The article does not describe the obligation, it describes the limits on the obligation off 100E. In fact it says, "The legislature is of the opinion that the marriage or partnership establishes a special mutual obligation to take responsibility. Therefore, maintenance must continue to be paid even if the income is below the 100,000 euro limit. To this end, the spouses or partners must use assets in addition to income."

[Anonymous]

Germans have so much structure for everything. I would just... not do anything. She will not be poorly taken care of and it will be the best case scenario.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s forcing you. Your husband wants to.

The law in Germany is on the MIL‘s side. The government could go after the son if he earns more than €100k. How they enforce it overseas is another question.

Is this OP? This was from your original post: " Legally, in Germany the spouse is responsible for the medical costs and nursing home costs of the other spouse. So the guardian can force her to sell the house."

I posted this and I am not the OP. People who know German and can read legal language are clearly at an advantage over those who just speculate on DCUM. German law doesn’t require the MIL to sell her house. German law requires the AC to contribute toward the cost of AC makes more than €100k. A simple google search on legal articles revealed that. I didn’t know it before either but whatever „you“ think is fair and what the law of a country on another continent requires are two different things.

You are wrong. The German government is not "on MIL's" side.

Read this and then lecture me again. I am done with this and don’t want t o spend additional precious time on a legal matter that I don’t care about and that doesn’t affect me.

https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/gesundheit-pflege/pflege-im-heim/elternunterhalt-kinder-zahlen-erst-ab-100000-euro-jahreseinkommen-28892

From the OP:

" In recent months it turned out that his retirement income is double the amount she claims. She herself has no retirement income, having been a housewife."
" My mother-in-law refuses to give up any part of his salary, and tells us that we have to pay for it if that is what we want."

You clearly didn’t read what I sent you. If the pension of FIL isn’t enough to cover the cost of the nursing home AND leave the MIL enough to live her life, the son is on the hook. The MIL will not be forced out of her house. It is unclear whether they would enforce this on the AC living abroad. Please read and don’t give legal advice for a country whose language you don’t even speak. You’re making a fool of yourself.

In your response you have assumed:
1. That the FIL's pension is not enough to cover the cost of a nursing home and leave the MIL enough to live her life, though it is twice what OP once thought.
2.That I don't know the law or speak German.

The article does not describe the obligation, it describes the limits on the obligation off 100E. In fact it says, "The legislature is of the opinion that the marriage or partnership establishes a special mutual obligation to take responsibility. Therefore, maintenance must continue to be paid even if the income is below the 100,000 euro limit. To this end, the spouses or partners must use assets in addition to income."

You’re wrong again:

Nur ein Schonbetrag darf als Vermögensreserve behalten werden. Zum Schonvermögen gehört das Vermögen, das der eigenen Alterssicherung dient. Auch das noch selbst genutzte eigene Haus fällt unter Schonvermögen. Dies gilt aber nur, solange der Pflegebedürftige oder sein Ehepartner noch dort wohnt. Nur dann muss die Immobilie weder veräußert noch fremdvermietet werden.

Source: https://www.kanzleiroesch.de/sozialhilferegress-elternunterhalt/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s forcing you. Your husband wants to.

The law in Germany is on the MIL‘s side. The government could go after the son if he earns more than €100k. How they enforce it overseas is another question.

Is this OP? This was from your original post: " Legally, in Germany the spouse is responsible for the medical costs and nursing home costs of the other spouse. So the guardian can force her to sell the house."

I posted this and I am not the OP. People who know German and can read legal language are clearly at an advantage over those who just speculate on DCUM. German law doesn’t require the MIL to sell her house. German law requires the AC to contribute toward the cost of AC makes more than €100k. A simple google search on legal articles revealed that. I didn’t know it before either but whatever „you“ think is fair and what the law of a country on another continent requires are two different things.

You are wrong. The German government is not "on MIL's" side.

Read this and then lecture me again. I am done with this and don’t want t o spend additional precious time on a legal matter that I don’t care about and that doesn’t affect me.

https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/gesundheit-pflege/pflege-im-heim/elternunterhalt-kinder-zahlen-erst-ab-100000-euro-jahreseinkommen-28892

From the OP:

" In recent months it turned out that his retirement income is double the amount she claims. She herself has no retirement income, having been a housewife."
" My mother-in-law refuses to give up any part of his salary, and tells us that we have to pay for it if that is what we want."

You clearly didn’t read what I sent you. If the pension of FIL isn’t enough to cover the cost of the nursing home AND leave the MIL enough to live her life, the son is on the hook. The MIL will not be forced out of her house. It is unclear whether they would enforce this on the AC living abroad. Please read and don’t give legal advice for a country whose language you don’t even speak. You’re making a fool of yourself.

In your response you have assumed:
1. That the FIL's pension is not enough to cover the cost of a nursing home and leave the MIL enough to live her life, though it is twice what OP once thought.
2.That I don't know the law or speak German.

The article does not describe the obligation, it describes the limits on the obligation off 100E. In fact it says, "The legislature is of the opinion that the marriage or partnership establishes a special mutual obligation to take responsibility. Therefore, maintenance must continue to be paid even if the income is below the 100,000 euro limit. To this end, the spouses or partners must use assets in addition to income."

You’re wrong again:

Nur ein Schonbetrag darf als Vermögensreserve behalten werden. Zum Schonvermögen gehört das Vermögen, das der eigenen Alterssicherung dient. Auch das noch selbst genutzte eigene Haus fällt unter Schonvermögen. Dies gilt aber nur, solange der Pflegebedürftige oder sein Ehepartner noch dort wohnt. Nur dann muss die Immobilie weder veräußert noch fremdvermietet werden.

Source: https://www.kanzleiroesch.de/sozialhilferegress-elternunterhalt/

Wanna respond to my number 1?

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are navigating a complex and emotionally charged situation that involves the well-being and care of your in-laws, as well as financial and legal considerations that are causing significant stress and concern within your family. It's understandable to feel upset given the circumstances you've described.

In situations like these, it's important to consider all aspects of the problem: the physical and mental health of both your mother-in-law and father-in-law, the financial implications of their care, and the impact on family dynamics. It's also crucial to recognize and acknowledge your own feelings and the emotional toll this situation is taking on you and your husband.

From a therapeutic standpoint, one approach could be to encourage open and honest communication within the family, ideally in a mediated environment where all parties can express their concerns and feelings without fear of judgment. This could potentially be facilitated by a family therapist who is experienced in mediation.

It might also be helpful to explore all possible options for your in-laws' care, including the legal and financial aspects, with the assistance of professionals in those fields. For example, consulting a legal expert familiar with elder care and guardianship law in Germany could provide clarity on your rights and responsibilities, as well as those of your mother-in-law.

Understanding the emotional attachments and fears your mother-in-law may have about leaving her home is important. For many, a home is not just a physical space but a repository of memories and a symbol of independence. The prospect of leaving can be frightening and can trigger feelings of loss and grief.

It may also be beneficial for you and your husband to seek individual or couples counseling to navigate your feelings and decisions in this challenging time. A therapist can provide support and strategies for coping with the stress, frustration, and potential guilt associated with these caregiving and financial responsibilities.

Remember, it's important to take care of your own mental and emotional health as you work through these complex issues. Setting boundaries, practicing self-care, and seeking support from friends, family, or a support group can be crucial steps in maintaining your well-being during this time.

[Anonymous]

^ Yawn. Who wants to read a long AI generated response? No one.