Big Law - HR meeting out of the blue

[Anonymous]

Op here: appreciate everyone’s feedback. Wish me luck. Ill give an update tomorrow afternoon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good luck OP.

It'll be okay, no matter what

+100

[Anonymous]

Praying for you OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's always a good idea to forward possible writing samples, kudos emails, CYA material, etc to your personal email. If you don't do this routinely, now's a good time to start. Obviously you don't want to violate any firm rules or professional standards, redact if needed, etc.

No, don't do this. You follow your firm's document use and retention policy to a T.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good luck, OP. No matter what happens tomorrow, you'll later look back on this as a blip. Probably sooner than you think. (BTDT, it is now a blip.)

Solid advice here to be prepared to discuss PIP-type ways you can improve AND what you want as severance. If you can get in the office early and sneak out your important personal things just in case, that could help avoid an embarrassing scene later. Or specifically ask to be allowed to pack up on weekend or after hours.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that. You will be okay no matter what! Sometimes this happens to people who don't deserve it, try not to take it personally or let it mess with your head. You're the same valuable person they hired, and they will see that again or your next employer will. Good luck!

This isn't really how law firms work. Never known anyone to be put on a PIP--usually people are counseled out (suggested that its time to leave) or laid off with severance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd update your resume and put out some feelers to recruiters, OP.

How were your billables?

Low billables. But the market has been slow for our group in general.

I wouldn’t keep riding on the good performance review from last year.

How does your firm normally handle performance issues? Is it multiple warnings/a PIP? Or immediate separation?

Law firms aren't like this. If there isn't enough work to support the associates on staff, they will fire some until there is a better matching of supply/demand. You can be totally competent, even well liked associate. But if there's not enough work, and the firm predicts the downturn will last, then you still have a high chance of layoff. Firms took too long in 2008 to react to the sudden downturn, and figured out they needed to be quicker - so now assume they will make firing decisions within 3 months of a slowdown. They'll do this even if you're a good lawyer - but they'll pick the least busy associate to lay off, because that is just a general indication of how much partners need/like the associate.

If you're a bad associate, you also don't get a warning - they will just let you go with severance.

OP - i would be surprised that they wouldn't give you more of a 3 month runway to come back after leave and get your feet back on the ground. It's very normal to take a while for work to pick back up. And it's not good optics to fire new moms. But how were your hours before leave? Had you been cruising a bit and already seen as one of the lesser focused associates?

BUt with all that said, in my 17 years in biglaw, I have never heard of an associate or non-equity partner having a meeting asked for by HR where it wasn't to be let go.

Like you said, if there’s not enough work, they’ll fire people. If OP is not meeting their target, then they’ll be in the pool to be fired. Coming back from leave doesn’t exempt you from billing targets unless you have an accommodation that could reduce the target.

No, that's not true. Unless you want a reputation, you have to give associates coming back from parental leave time to ramp back up.

Nope, this is a fantasy. No one cares about “reputations”. Look at the last downturn in law. As soon as the economy picked up, people were clamoring to work at all the big firms that had just treated their associates like crap.

It’s pretty black and white when you’re talking about billing targets.

No, another biglaw attorney here who disagrees with you. It is EXTREMELY rare to come anywhere close to meeting hours targets when you come back from maternity leave. Accordingly, a firm that followed your protocol would be firing most women coming back from maternity leave. Those firms would get eaten alive for doing that - both internally and externally. Firms in 2024 are very concerned about equity and very concerned about promoting women, and at this point, most firms' senior ranks have some pretty strong numbers of strong, smart women who would not stand for this.

OP, are you a mom who took maternity leave or a dad who took parental leave?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dressing up layoffs as performance related is all the rage in professional services firms in the last year. It’s a thing. Sorry.

Why? Is it to make it look like the firm isn't in financial trouble? Seems kind of dumb and not in the firm's best interest from an HR perspective.
I saw a video posted on DCUM about a woman called Brittany Peach -- I had never heard of her but her name is easy to remember. It might be worth checking out that video (although i am not sure I think she handled it well, there my be some hints related to how she SHOULD have handled it on DCUM or otherwise- do a search).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd update your resume and put out some feelers to recruiters, OP.

How were your billables?

Low billables. But the market has been slow for our group in general.

I wouldn’t keep riding on the good performance review from last year.

How does your firm normally handle performance issues? Is it multiple warnings/a PIP? Or immediate separation?

Law firms aren't like this. If there isn't enough work to support the associates on staff, they will fire some until there is a better matching of supply/demand. You can be totally competent, even well liked associate. But if there's not enough work, and the firm predicts the downturn will last, then you still have a high chance of layoff. Firms took too long in 2008 to react to the sudden downturn, and figured out they needed to be quicker - so now assume they will make firing decisions within 3 months of a slowdown. They'll do this even if you're a good lawyer - but they'll pick the least busy associate to lay off, because that is just a general indication of how much partners need/like the associate.

If you're a bad associate, you also don't get a warning - they will just let you go with severance.

OP - i would be surprised that they wouldn't give you more of a 3 month runway to come back after leave and get your feet back on the ground. It's very normal to take a while for work to pick back up. And it's not good optics to fire new moms. But how were your hours before leave? Had you been cruising a bit and already seen as one of the lesser focused associates?

BUt with all that said, in my 17 years in biglaw, I have never heard of an associate or non-equity partner having a meeting asked for by HR where it wasn't to be let go.

Did the OP say she was a woman? I just saw parental leave. It may be exactly the sort of optic that a crappy place wants to have for men (I dont work in Big Law or law in general but have worked in family unfriendly places)

[Anonymous]

OP, I posted the above two posts and just wanted to add - Good luck! People are being nice on this site and you should take that as people being REALLY loving and nice to you in real life -- seriously, hope it goes well and sending you good vibes

[Anonymous]

90 days post parental leave isn’t a lot of time to get ramped back up. I would make sure to document this with HR if in fact they are letting you go.

“I don’t feel like I’ve had the proper resources to hit my hours after returning from leave” etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd update your resume and put out some feelers to recruiters, OP.

How were your billables?

Low billables. But the market has been slow for our group in general.

I wouldn’t keep riding on the good performance review from last year.

How does your firm normally handle performance issues? Is it multiple warnings/a PIP? Or immediate separation?

Law firms aren't like this. If there isn't enough work to support the associates on staff, they will fire some until there is a better matching of supply/demand. You can be totally competent, even well liked associate. But if there's not enough work, and the firm predicts the downturn will last, then you still have a high chance of layoff. Firms took too long in 2008 to react to the sudden downturn, and figured out they needed to be quicker - so now assume they will make firing decisions within 3 months of a slowdown. They'll do this even if you're a good lawyer - but they'll pick the least busy associate to lay off, because that is just a general indication of how much partners need/like the associate.

If you're a bad associate, you also don't get a warning - they will just let you go with severance.

OP - i would be surprised that they wouldn't give you more of a 3 month runway to come back after leave and get your feet back on the ground. It's very normal to take a while for work to pick back up. And it's not good optics to fire new moms. But how were your hours before leave? Had you been cruising a bit and already seen as one of the lesser focused associates?

BUt with all that said, in my 17 years in biglaw, I have never heard of an associate or non-equity partner having a meeting asked for by HR where it wasn't to be let go.

Like you said, if there’s not enough work, they’ll fire people. If OP is not meeting their target, then they’ll be in the pool to be fired. Coming back from leave doesn’t exempt you from billing targets unless you have an accommodation that could reduce the target.

No, that's not true. Unless you want a reputation, you have to give associates coming back from parental leave time to ramp back up.

Nope, this is a fantasy. No one cares about “reputations”. Look at the last downturn in law. As soon as the economy picked up, people were clamoring to work at all the big firms that had just treated their associates like crap.

It’s pretty black and white when you’re talking about billing targets.

No, another biglaw attorney here who disagrees with you. It is EXTREMELY rare to come anywhere close to meeting hours targets when you come back from maternity leave. Accordingly, a firm that followed your protocol would be firing most women coming back from maternity leave. Those firms would get eaten alive for doing that - both internally and externally. Firms in 2024 are very concerned about equity and very concerned about promoting women, and at this point, most firms' senior ranks have some pretty strong numbers of strong, smart women who would not stand for this.

OP, are you a mom who took maternity leave or a dad who took parental leave?

What difference does op’s gender make?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I posted the above two posts and just wanted to add - Good luck! People are being nice on this site and you should take that as people being REALLY loving and nice to you in real life -- seriously, hope it goes well and sending you good vibes

This op. Thanks!!! Appreciate the support and love.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When was the review discussion compared to when you came back from leave?

3 months ago

Which was 3 months ago? Both the review and the return from leave?

Did you give birth to the baby?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd update your resume and put out some feelers to recruiters, OP.

How were your billables?

Low billables. But the market has been slow for our group in general.

I wouldn’t keep riding on the good performance review from last year.

How does your firm normally handle performance issues? Is it multiple warnings/a PIP? Or immediate separation?

Law firms aren't like this. If there isn't enough work to support the associates on staff, they will fire some until there is a better matching of supply/demand. You can be totally competent, even well liked associate. But if there's not enough work, and the firm predicts the downturn will last, then you still have a high chance of layoff. Firms took too long in 2008 to react to the sudden downturn, and figured out they needed to be quicker - so now assume they will make firing decisions within 3 months of a slowdown. They'll do this even if you're a good lawyer - but they'll pick the least busy associate to lay off, because that is just a general indication of how much partners need/like the associate.

If you're a bad associate, you also don't get a warning - they will just let you go with severance.

OP - i would be surprised that they wouldn't give you more of a 3 month runway to come back after leave and get your feet back on the ground. It's very normal to take a while for work to pick back up. And it's not good optics to fire new moms. But how were your hours before leave? Had you been cruising a bit and already seen as one of the lesser focused associates?

BUt with all that said, in my 17 years in biglaw, I have never heard of an associate or non-equity partner having a meeting asked for by HR where it wasn't to be let go.

Like you said, if there’s not enough work, they’ll fire people. If OP is not meeting their target, then they’ll be in the pool to be fired. Coming back from leave doesn’t exempt you from billing targets unless you have an accommodation that could reduce the target.

No, that's not true. Unless you want a reputation, you have to give associates coming back from parental leave time to ramp back up.

Nope, this is a fantasy. No one cares about “reputations”. Look at the last downturn in law. As soon as the economy picked up, people were clamoring to work at all the big firms that had just treated their associates like crap.

It’s pretty black and white when you’re talking about billing targets.

No, another biglaw attorney here who disagrees with you. It is EXTREMELY rare to come anywhere close to meeting hours targets when you come back from maternity leave. Accordingly, a firm that followed your protocol would be firing most women coming back from maternity leave. Those firms would get eaten alive for doing that - both internally and externally. Firms in 2024 are very concerned about equity and very concerned about promoting women, and at this point, most firms' senior ranks have some pretty strong numbers of strong, smart women who would not stand for this.

OP, are you a mom who took maternity leave or a dad who took parental leave?

This is op. I’m a mom who took maternity leave. No surprise. Never heard of dads getting penalized for having kids and there no such thing a forced daddy tracking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd update your resume and put out some feelers to recruiters, OP.

How were your billables?

Low billables. But the market has been slow for our group in general.

I wouldn’t keep riding on the good performance review from last year.

How does your firm normally handle performance issues? Is it multiple warnings/a PIP? Or immediate separation?

Law firms aren't like this. If there isn't enough work to support the associates on staff, they will fire some until there is a better matching of supply/demand. You can be totally competent, even well liked associate. But if there's not enough work, and the firm predicts the downturn will last, then you still have a high chance of layoff. Firms took too long in 2008 to react to the sudden downturn, and figured out they needed to be quicker - so now assume they will make firing decisions within 3 months of a slowdown. They'll do this even if you're a good lawyer - but they'll pick the least busy associate to lay off, because that is just a general indication of how much partners need/like the associate.

If you're a bad associate, you also don't get a warning - they will just let you go with severance.

OP - i would be surprised that they wouldn't give you more of a 3 month runway to come back after leave and get your feet back on the ground. It's very normal to take a while for work to pick back up. And it's not good optics to fire new moms. But how were your hours before leave? Had you been cruising a bit and already seen as one of the lesser focused associates?

BUt with all that said, in my 17 years in biglaw, I have never heard of an associate or non-equity partner having a meeting asked for by HR where it wasn't to be let go.

Like you said, if there’s not enough work, they’ll fire people. If OP is not meeting their target, then they’ll be in the pool to be fired. Coming back from leave doesn’t exempt you from billing targets unless you have an accommodation that could reduce the target.

Assuming you used FMLA leave, maybe you can get evidence together for a FMLA retaliation lawsuit. Did underperforming comparators who did not take protected leave also get called to a meeting with HR? At least may be some leverage in a severance negotiation. For those of you who are thinking a Big Law firm would be savvy enough not to violate federal law, it's happened...