Does Test Optional Really Mean Test Optional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most people agree to submit a 34 ACT or 1500+ SAT. Also AP scores if you have them. If you are at a private that doesn’t offer the AP courses but can still take the AP exam and do well-even better, esp at OOS flagships.

Lots of rumination by top colleges about their testing policies going forward-listen to Dartmouth and Yale podcasts. It is universally agreed that test scores help validate a strong GPA and if you aren’t in a preferred category (URM, FGLI, athlete or legacy) it can only help
To have that piece of the puzzle. For the few who make it into a top 25 school without them-those are the unicorns.

You do realize that for schools with sub-10 % acceptance rates, unhooked students who submit test scores and get in are also unicorns!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have recently noticed that some schools, while remaining test optional, have a sentence on their websites stating that students should take the tests and submit the results "if they are able." Thoughts on what this means? It's concerning because with the test optional policies only kids with the highest scores are submitting. Is it crazy to apply without taking the test?

Which schools say this? Because some are definitely still saying “when we say test optional, we really mean it — we will consider them if you send them but we have lots of other factors to consider about you if you don’t send them.”

Many ex AO's say the same thing: test optional is not really test optional if you are not in the disadvantaged group. If you have highly qualified parents, good HS and an expensive location, not sending test scores is a dead giveaway. They have to assume consciously or subconsciously that scores are poor or bad and wonder why that is so. Current AO's have to say "we really mean it" because they want to seem to be not putting pressure on kids. In a broad sense it is also kind of, sort of, truish. Because they look at applications holistically. If you are a fields medal winner, sure they really would ignore scores. See? they really mean it. So they go with that line.

When colleges have 7X the applications for slots, and </= 15% acceptance rates, the AOs will have their pick. Test optional doesn't change this dynamic. Will many basic "high stats" kids get washed out in the mix? Of course. That's the nature of highly selective college admissions.>

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have recently noticed that some schools, while remaining test optional, have a sentence on their websites stating that students should take the tests and submit the results "if they are able." Thoughts on what this means? It's concerning because with the test optional policies only kids with the highest scores are submitting. Is it crazy to apply without taking the test?

Which schools say this? Because some are definitely still saying “when we say test optional, we really mean it — we will consider them if you send them but we have lots of other factors to consider about you if you don’t send them.”

Many ex AO's say the same thing: test optional is not really test optional if you are not in the disadvantaged group. If you have highly qualified parents, good HS and an expensive location, not sending test scores is a dead giveaway. They have to assume consciously or subconsciously that scores are poor or bad and wonder why that is so. Current AO's have to say "we really mean it" because they want to seem to be not putting pressure on kids. In a broad sense it is also kind of, sort of, truish. Because they look at applications holistically. If you are a fields medal winner, sure they really would ignore scores. See? they really mean it. So they go with that line.

you are 100% wrong - find me one who has gone on record saying this - it’s misinformation like this that’s stated as “fact” that steers so many wrong on this site..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid went TO this year. 4.0 uw, top rigor, strong ECs/leadership. Rejected from Ivy ED. Accepted with top merit at three schools EA (top 30 SLAC, two publics OOS). Waiting for decisions from five others (one top 25, three top 20 SLACs, one OOS public safety).

I suspect a really strong test score might have moved the kid from rejection to deferral at the Ivy (based on what I know about an admitted classmate), but who knows. And not focusing on the test was the definitely the right decision for this kid, so no regrets.

What top-30 SLAC has early action?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid went TO this year. 4.0 uw, top rigor, strong ECs/leadership. Rejected from Ivy ED. Accepted with top merit at three schools EA (top 30 SLAC, two publics OOS). Waiting for decisions from five others (one top 25, three top 20 SLACs, one OOS public safety).

I suspect a really strong test score might have moved the kid from rejection to deferral at the Ivy (based on what I know about an admitted classmate), but who knows. And not focusing on the test was the definitely the right decision for this kid, so no regrets.

What top-30 SLAC has early action?

Colorado College and Macalester

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top colleges are perfectly fine with test optional.
They will get "the best" students which meet the academic standards and institutional needs.

The graduation rates for T25 and such will remain high. Even when the SAT was mandatory, graduation rates were never 100%.

When a state like CA with a large population of prospective students each year is test blind ( think about that for a second); thousands of colleges have been TO going on 4 years; HYSP ( with Harvard through calendar year 2026!) still TO; and an Ivy League school like Columbia being permanently TO, my friends, the cake has been baked.

Colleges will not go back to mandatory standardized testing en masse, including the elite colleges.

There will hundreds of opinions whether that's good or not, but it is what it is. Each family will need to determine what's best for their kid's college admissions prospects.

Technically, the University of California system is test blind ( UCLA, Berkeley, etc.)

Private colleges in California are mostly test optional.

The point of test blind being implemented within a test optional landscape is noted.

[Anonymous]

Look at the CDS for the latest % submitting scores. For simplicity, assuming no overlap (as I don't believe historical, pre-TO overlap % is accurate in the current test optional environment):

Harvard 83% submitting, 17% test optional
Yale 88% submitting, 12% test optional
Northwestern 78% submitting, 22% test optional
Duke 61% submitting, 39% test optional
Brown 81% submitting, 19% test optional
Vandy 51% submitting, 49% test optional

These are from fall 2022 freshmen. Most haven't posted a new CDS yet for fall 2023. It'll be interesting to see data for fall 2024, though we will need to wait a long time for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have recently noticed that some schools, while remaining test optional, have a sentence on their websites stating that students should take the tests and submit the results "if they are able." Thoughts on what this means? It's concerning because with the test optional policies only kids with the highest scores are submitting. Is it crazy to apply without taking the test?

Which schools say this? Because some are definitely still saying “when we say test optional, we really mean it — we will consider them if you send them but we have lots of other factors to consider about you if you don’t send them.”

Many ex AO's say the same thing: test optional is not really test optional if you are not in the disadvantaged group. If you have highly qualified parents, good HS and an expensive location, not sending test scores is a dead giveaway. They have to assume consciously or subconsciously that scores are poor or bad and wonder why that is so. Current AO's have to say "we really mean it" because they want to seem to be not putting pressure on kids. In a broad sense it is also kind of, sort of, truish. Because they look at applications holistically. If you are a fields medal winner, sure they really would ignore scores. See? they really mean it. So they go with that line.

you are 100% wrong - find me one who has gone on record saying this - it’s misinformation like this that’s stated as “fact” that steers so many wrong on this site..

You are awfully smug for someone who does not even know this point.

Former Associate Dean of Admissions at U Penn, Sara Harberson for one makes this clear. Her book explains this in vivid detail if you are interested. She goes on to explain why.

[Anonymous]

Apologies if someone already made this point, but the podcast Your College Bound Kid (YCBK) did an episode a month or two ago parsing thelanguage used by various schools to suss out who was really test optional and who wasn't. It was a pretty interesting discussion. I think it was in November or December. They have a website and you should be able to find it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD applied test optional and so far has gotten into all the schools that had early action and she received top merit at all of them. The schools were not T-10, but more like T50-75. She had a 3.9/4.6W and a lot of very good EC's, so that helped. In her case, I don't think she would have gotten as much merit if she'd submitted her decent, but not stellar test scores. If you are looking at more competitive schools, it may be a different story.

THIS^^^

Outside of the Top 25 or so, TO is really TO. Does not matter if your zip code indicates you could prep and easily take the SAT.

Inside the T25, I believe it does matter. If you attend an elite prep school or magnet Public HS, and do not submit test scores, I think it might hurt you

[Anonymous]

If no SATs or ACTs, students should be sure to take APs exams at the end of their junior year.
I suspect that many of the test-optional kids who get into selective colleges did submit AP scores of 4 and 5. The point being that there has to be a somewhat objective way for AOs to see academic competence since hyper-inflated GPAs are pretty meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If no SATs or ACTs, students should be sure to take APs exams at the end of their junior year.
I suspect that many of the test-optional kids who get into selective colleges did submit AP scores of 4 and 5. The point being that there has to be a somewhat objective way for AOs to see academic competence since hyper-inflated GPAs are pretty meaningless.

I agree that AP scores can “substitute” for SATs/ACTs. In fact, my prediction is that some of the schools that want to bring tests back will go “test flexible,” giving options for the type of test scores you can submit. So, SAT or ACT or 3 AP test results or country-based test results (e.g. A levels) or [whatever new test the testing industry foists upon the world].

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top colleges are perfectly fine with test optional.
They will get "the best" students which meet the academic standards and institutional needs.

The graduation rates for T25 and such will remain high. Even when the SAT was mandatory, graduation rates were never 100%.

When a state like CA with a large population of prospective students each year is test blind ( think about that for a second); thousands of colleges have been TO going on 4 years; HYSP ( with Harvard through calendar year 2026!) still TO; and an Ivy League school like Columbia being permanently TO, my friends, the cake has been baked.

Colleges will not go back to mandatory standardized testing en masse, including the elite colleges.

There will hundreds of opinions whether that's good or not, but it is what it is. Each family will need to determine what's best for their kid's college admissions prospects.

This 1000 percent! Colleges, save a few specialty ones (ie. MIT) have determined that they can adequately craft a class with TO. They want to have a class that is more than just 1550+ and 4.0+, 12+ APs, etc. Whether you agree with this or not, this is the future at most schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top colleges are perfectly fine with test optional.
They will get "the best" students which meet the academic standards and institutional needs.

The graduation rates for T25 and such will remain high. Even when the SAT was mandatory, graduation rates were never 100%.

When a state like CA with a large population of prospective students each year is test blind ( think about that for a second); thousands of colleges have been TO going on 4 years; HYSP ( with Harvard through calendar year 2026!) still TO; and an Ivy League school like Columbia being permanently TO, my friends, the cake has been baked.

Colleges will not go back to mandatory standardized testing en masse, including the elite colleges.

There will hundreds of opinions whether that's good or not, but it is what it is. Each family will need to determine what's best for their kid's college admissions prospects.

This 1000 percent! Colleges, save a few specialty ones (ie. MIT) have determined that they can adequately craft a class with TO. They want to have a class that is more than just 1550+ and 4.0+, 12+ APs, etc. Whether you agree with this or not, this is the future at most schools.

I’m the “text flexible” PP, and I agree. But I also think a few top schools are going to go back to some sort of testing requirement. Brown is sending pretty clear signals; they have a committee looking at test policies, ED, and legacy, and they’re supposed to announce decisions in the spring. The president has made multiple statements about how helpful testing is in the admissions process. My prediction is that Brown returns to some sort of testing requirement (with a strong message about submitting test scores that are good in your HS context rather than looking at CDS averages), kills ED (hardest to defend from an equity standpoint), and keeps legacy (hardest to get rid of from a fundraising standpoint, and they can spin it as important for developing community and connection, how it’s now benefiting a more diverse range of students, etc).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top colleges are perfectly fine with test optional.
They will get "the best" students which meet the academic standards and institutional needs.

The graduation rates for T25 and such will remain high. Even when the SAT was mandatory, graduation rates were never 100%.

When a state like CA with a large population of prospective students each year is test blind ( think about that for a second); thousands of colleges have been TO going on 4 years; HYSP ( with Harvard through calendar year 2026!) still TO; and an Ivy League school like Columbia being permanently TO, my friends, the cake has been baked.

Colleges will not go back to mandatory standardized testing en masse, including the elite colleges.

There will hundreds of opinions whether that's good or not, but it is what it is. Each family will need to determine what's best for their kid's college admissions prospects.

This 1000 percent! Colleges, save a few specialty ones (ie. MIT) have determined that they can adequately craft a class with TO. They want to have a class that is more than just 1550+ and 4.0+, 12+ APs, etc. Whether you agree with this or not, this is the future at most schools.

We don't know if the "test optional" admits actually didn't submit APs. As noted in the PP, it would be useful to see if the kids who got in without SATs or ACTs nonetheless submitted high AP scores.