Does Test Optional Really Mean Test Optional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people agree to submit a 34 ACT or 1500+ SAT. Also AP scores if you have them. If you are at a private that doesn’t offer the AP courses but can still take the AP exam and do well-even better, esp at OOS flagships.

Lots of rumination by top colleges about their testing policies going forward-listen to Dartmouth and Yale podcasts. It is universally agreed that test scores help validate a strong GPA and if you aren’t in a preferred category (URM, FGLI, athlete or legacy) it can only help
To have that piece of the puzzle. For the few who make it into a top 25 school without them-those are the unicorns.

You do realize that for schools with sub-10 % acceptance rates, unhooked students who submit test scores and get in are also unicorns!

According to the Common Data Set:
28% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Stanford
15% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Princeton
19% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Brown
17% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Harvard
40% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Cornell

[Anonymous]

When Covid hit and testing wasn't widely available, colleges came up with "test optional" and reaped a huge bonanza - increased application fees. Given the uncertainty around admissions, students are now applying to more schools, reinforcing that revenue stream.

Now that we are past Covid, colleges don't want to give up on that revenue stream and continue with the 'test optional' marketing pitch so we suckers continue to apply and increase their revenue. But test scores DO matter. If you think of the 'academic stool' as having 3 legs - GPA, Rigor and Test Scores, you need to have a strong showing in at least two of the three to be favorably considered. This is for schools below T40 or so. Of course, the more selective the school, the more important all three are.

TO also gives schools to shape the class of their choice and they will continue to admit strong TO students just so future TO students will continue to apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have recently noticed that some schools, while remaining test optional, have a sentence on their websites stating that students should take the tests and submit the results "if they are able." Thoughts on what this means? It's concerning because with the test optional policies only kids with the highest scores are submitting. Is it crazy to apply without taking the test?

Which schools say this? Because some are definitely still saying “when we say test optional, we really mean it — we will consider them if you send them but we have lots of other factors to consider about you if you don’t send them.”

Many ex AO's say the same thing: test optional is not really test optional if you are not in the disadvantaged group. If you have highly qualified parents, good HS and an expensive location, not sending test scores is a dead giveaway. They have to assume consciously or subconsciously that scores are poor or bad and wonder why that is so. Current AO's have to say "we really mean it" because they want to seem to be not putting pressure on kids. In a broad sense it is also kind of, sort of, truish. Because they look at applications holistically. If you are a fields medal winner, sure they really would ignore scores. See? they really mean it. So they go with that line.

you are 100% wrong - find me one who has gone on record saying this - it’s misinformation like this that’s stated as “fact” that steers so many wrong on this site..

You are awfully smug for someone who does not even know this point.

Former Associate Dean of Admissions at U Penn, Sara Harberson for one makes this clear. Her book explains this in vivid detail if you are interested. She goes on to explain why.

A lot of quotes of 'former" administrators and "ex" Admissions Officers. Hmmm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people agree to submit a 34 ACT or 1500+ SAT. Also AP scores if you have them. If you are at a private that doesn’t offer the AP courses but can still take the AP exam and do well-even better, esp at OOS flagships.

Lots of rumination by top colleges about their testing policies going forward-listen to Dartmouth and Yale podcasts. It is universally agreed that test scores help validate a strong GPA and if you aren’t in a preferred category (URM, FGLI, athlete or legacy) it can only help
To have that piece of the puzzle. For the few who make it into a top 25 school without them-those are the unicorns.

You do realize that for schools with sub-10 % acceptance rates, unhooked students who submit test scores and get in are also unicorns!

According to the Common Data Set:
28% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Stanford
15% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Princeton
19% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Brown
17% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Harvard
40% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Cornell

Those stats are embarassing ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD applied test optional and so far has gotten into all the schools that had early action and she received top merit at all of them. The schools were not T-10, but more like T50-75. She had a 3.9/4.6W and a lot of very good EC's, so that helped. In her case, I don't think she would have gotten as much merit if she'd submitted her decent, but not stellar test scores. If you are looking at more competitive schools, it may be a different story.

THIS^^^

Outside of the Top 25 or so, TO is really TO. Does not matter if your zip code indicates you could prep and easily take the SAT.

Inside the T25, I believe it does matter. If you attend an elite prep school or magnet Public HS, and do not submit test scores, I think it might hurt you

Given that 90% of the DCUM parents' kids will NOT attend a T25, the opportunity to apply and gain admission to a T50-75 via a strong application - without having to submit a SAT/ACT score - is welcomed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If no SATs or ACTs, students should be sure to take APs exams at the end of their junior year.
I suspect that many of the test-optional kids who get into selective colleges did submit AP scores of 4 and 5. The point being that there has to be a somewhat objective way for AOs to see academic competence since hyper-inflated GPAs are pretty meaningless.

I agree that AP scores can “substitute” for SATs/ACTs. In fact, my prediction is that some of the schools that want to bring tests back will go “test flexible,” giving options for the type of test scores you can submit. So, SAT or ACT or 3 AP test results or country-based test results (e.g. A levels) or [whatever new test the testing industry foists upon the world].

"Test flexible " is fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t listen to the above poster. It varies by college but plenty of regular old white kids have gotten in TO to top schools, even in the early round so far this year.

Top schools? Like T-10? T-20? I don't think so.

my regular old white kid got into one of these top schools TO. She prepped a bit, and after several sittings only scored in mid 1300s so decided to bag it - ECs essays and recs were very good - nothing national, just regular old white kid stuff, but told a cohesive story that made sense for the college and her field of interest. Tell a good story is my advice for all, whether or not u submit. And although everyone says rich/private school kids have to submit, it’s expected - this is categorically false and a fallacy created by elites - no adcom has ever said this is a thing. If it’s TO, and they message that consistently, then it’s TO for all

This is such a valuable piece of advice that most people miss. They really think it’s just about scores and a list of activities. The gpa (and scores if they’re submitted) will get you through the first door. It’s the kids who can weave together a story across their essays about their values and how they come through in their extra curriculars that will make it through the next rounds.

Yes. Tell the story. That matters a lot.

But for test scores, there's a difference for top 40 kind of colleges and the other 4000 colleges. Pretty sure going TO isn't going to matter much at Frostburg State. It'll matter at Georgia Tech and every school ranked higher.

For a white or Asian kid from the burbs, test scores are expected. The students getting in TO at competitive colleges all have something - high GPAs, many APs, leadership positions, great stories. Or are URM, legacy, athletes or particularly wealthy. Would guess many didn't submit because they scored in the 1400s while every school these days seems to expect a 1580.

Test optional has not been a wonderful development for the vast majority of kids. It creates even more pressure and uncertainty.

Bad advice….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look at the CDS for the latest % submitting scores. For simplicity, assuming no overlap (as I don't believe historical, pre-TO overlap % is accurate in the current test optional environment):

Harvard 83% submitting, 17% test optional
Yale 88% submitting, 12% test optional
Northwestern 78% submitting, 22% test optional
Duke 61% submitting, 39% test optional
Brown 81% submitting, 19% test optional
Vandy 51% submitting, 49% test optional

These are from fall 2022 freshmen. Most haven't posted a new CDS yet for fall 2023. It'll be interesting to see data for fall 2024, though we will need to wait a long time for that.

Ok those Duke and Vandy numbers stand out like a red flag….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have recently noticed that some schools, while remaining test optional, have a sentence on their websites stating that students should take the tests and submit the results "if they are able." Thoughts on what this means? It's concerning because with the test optional policies only kids with the highest scores are submitting. Is it crazy to apply without taking the test?

Which schools say this? Because some are definitely still saying “when we say test optional, we really mean it — we will consider them if you send them but we have lots of other factors to consider about you if you don’t send them.”

Many ex AO's say the same thing: test optional is not really test optional if you are not in the disadvantaged group. If you have highly qualified parents, good HS and an expensive location, not sending test scores is a dead giveaway. They have to assume consciously or subconsciously that scores are poor or bad and wonder why that is so. Current AO's have to say "we really mean it" because they want to seem to be not putting pressure on kids. In a broad sense it is also kind of, sort of, truish. Because they look at applications holistically. If you are a fields medal winner, sure they really would ignore scores. See? they really mean it. So they go with that line.

you are 100% wrong - find me one who has gone on record saying this - it’s misinformation like this that’s stated as “fact” that steers so many wrong on this site..

You are awfully smug for someone who does not even know this point.

Former Associate Dean of Admissions at U Penn, Sara Harberson for one makes this clear. Her book explains this in vivid detail if you are interested. She goes on to explain why.

Ummm. She’s kind of paid gun now.
Mind you I do like her, but I take everything she says with a grain of salt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people agree to submit a 34 ACT or 1500+ SAT. Also AP scores if you have them. If you are at a private that doesn’t offer the AP courses but can still take the AP exam and do well-even better, esp at OOS flagships.

Lots of rumination by top colleges about their testing policies going forward-listen to Dartmouth and Yale podcasts. It is universally agreed that test scores help validate a strong GPA and if you aren’t in a preferred category (URM, FGLI, athlete or legacy) it can only help
To have that piece of the puzzle. For the few who make it into a top 25 school without them-those are the unicorns.

You do realize that for schools with sub-10 % acceptance rates, unhooked students who submit test scores and get in are also unicorns!

According to the Common Data Set:
28% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Stanford
15% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Princeton
19% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Brown
17% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Harvard
40% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Cornell

Wtf Cornell

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD applied test optional and so far has gotten into all the schools that had early action and she received top merit at all of them. The schools were not T-10, but more like T50-75. She had a 3.9/4.6W and a lot of very good EC's, so that helped. In her case, I don't think she would have gotten as much merit if she'd submitted her decent, but not stellar test scores. If you are looking at more competitive schools, it may be a different story.

Is the aid conditional on submitting scores eventually? I know some schools (I cannot remember which for sure, but possibly Auburn or similar) are test optional but require for merit. If not, that is really great to hear because we are hoping to go test optional. I thought merit would not happen based on that.

[Anonymous]

So it’s Duke, Vanderbilt and Cornell.
Who else?

This isn’t that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD applied test optional and so far has gotten into all the schools that had early action and she received top merit at all of them. The schools were not T-10, but more like T50-75. She had a 3.9/4.6W and a lot of very good EC's, so that helped. In her case, I don't think she would have gotten as much merit if she'd submitted her decent, but not stellar test scores. If you are looking at more competitive schools, it may be a different story.

Is the aid conditional on submitting scores eventually? I know some schools (I cannot remember which for sure, but possibly Auburn or similar) are test optional but require for merit. If not, that is really great to hear because we are hoping to go test optional. I thought merit would not happen based on that.

Nope - no scores needed. I was very worried in the beginning of this process, but it has turned out very well. I’m sure great scores could have gotten my DD into higher ranked schools, but she is delighted with her choices and we can afford them without her taking on debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people agree to submit a 34 ACT or 1500+ SAT. Also AP scores if you have them. If you are at a private that doesn’t offer the AP courses but can still take the AP exam and do well-even better, esp at OOS flagships.

Lots of rumination by top colleges about their testing policies going forward-listen to Dartmouth and Yale podcasts. It is universally agreed that test scores help validate a strong GPA and if you aren’t in a preferred category (URM, FGLI, athlete or legacy) it can only help
To have that piece of the puzzle. For the few who make it into a top 25 school without them-those are the unicorns.

You do realize that for schools with sub-10 % acceptance rates, unhooked students who submit test scores and get in are also unicorns!

According to the Common Data Set:
28% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Stanford
15% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Princeton
19% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Brown
17% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Harvard
40% of enrolled didn’t submit scores to Cornell

Wtf Cornell

DP. Some of Cornell's schools are test blind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD applied test optional and so far has gotten into all the schools that had early action and she received top merit at all of them. The schools were not T-10, but more like T50-75. She had a 3.9/4.6W and a lot of very good EC's, so that helped. In her case, I don't think she would have gotten as much merit if she'd submitted her decent, but not stellar test scores. If you are looking at more competitive schools, it may be a different story.

Is the aid conditional on submitting scores eventually? I know some schools (I cannot remember which for sure, but possibly Auburn or similar) are test optional but require for merit. If not, that is really great to hear because we are hoping to go test optional. I thought merit would not happen based on that.

Nope - no scores needed. I was very worried in the beginning of this process, but it has turned out very well. I’m sure great scores could have gotten my DD into higher ranked schools, but she is delighted with her choices and we can afford them without her taking on debt.

Amazing, congratulations to your dd! It must feel like a huge relief to be done with the process and have such great options. You just gave me a lot of hope for my dd.