Sorry DCUM middle class, your kids are screwed for college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

And, I think these complaints are overblown. My high stats, heavy EC, unhooked, public school kids are both at Ivies. One in at multiple, the other early and done. At 140k HHI (despite good college savings from us), they offered us way better FA than any merit (except UMD). These schools are longshots for everyone (except maybe the billionaires), but lots of kids that get in are unhooked.

They're not really overblown, despite your sample size of 2.

Better than your sample size of 0. And, mine are not alone. Most of the Ivy admits from their public school were unhooked and middle class or UMC.

Also, you really want to say no one cares about your kids? If your kids are that privileged, then that says YOU care about them, right? No one else has to care about them, but if they want top schools to accept them, they have to be compelling. Those are two different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/college-acceptance-rates-ivy-league-schools-wealth.html

Basically it seems athlete, monied donor, first gen (the new proxy for race), legacy are about it.

I hate the examples that so many books give for how the balance the athletic “allotment” - they may need a piccolo player in the band. I was in the band at an Ivy; it’s run by the students and there is zero interaction with administrators other than permission to play at games and rent buses. It is nothing like the bureaucracy advocating for athletics. I guess MAYBE at a Big10 school with world class marching band? But theater and music and debate teams at T25 schools aren’t coordinating with admissions about their future slots or participating population, that’s just a polite fiction, there just isn’t enough administrative support to even make those assessments let alone factor into admittance.

I think the article is actually under reporting the dead zone salary - $222k in manhattan?! I’m guessing probably $150k to $500k — they are looking for donors and two Fed employees making $180k aren’t going to be writing big checks.

DCUM has argued for the longest time that poor white, first Gen students were shut out by wealthy AA students and suddenly being first Gen is a proxy for race?

+1

Aggrieved DCUMers will move the URM goalposts. Gotta blame somebody when DC gets rejected.

I was thinking the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:T20 universities = the very rich and the very poor

No, there are still few poor kids, just that if you are one of the (relatively few) poor kids with strong academics, you'll get in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

I feel like you may have missed the spirit of that word "volunteer" on account of maybe being kind of a selfish and terrible person?

I'm in the same donut hole for salary you are--only worse, actually, because I bet we have less cash. I value education enough to take out loans to send my kid to the best possible school they can attend. We applied to state schools, but I'm not convinced they're the best option. And certainly not the default because I'm whining about how poor I am... when I'm not.

Ah, but that’s the elephant in the room.

It’s the equivalent of a second mortgage to debt finance a T20 school.

If you think it’s worth it, I support you, it’s your money. Same if you don’t want to do it. Your kid, your decision.

What we see from a lot of parents here is well actually, no, if I have to borrow it myself then these schools aren’t the magic bullet to success and aren’t worth spending their own money.

“But I don’t have it!” Yes you do, you can borrow all of it with no collateral. Then pay it over time. There are zero other times in life a bank will give you basically unlimited capital just based on a handshake and a smile.

If you can afford $35k a year for state school you can pay $80k a year if you space it out over ten years, look at that it’s $32k a year plus some interest. Same amount, roughly speaking.

[Anonymous]

There are thousands of us out there that don’t want Ivies for our kids. You do realize this, don’t you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

Your kid’s education was subsidized both by the state and by a scholarship but you didn’t get a handout?

No, they earned it with high stats and crazy hard work and they raise the test score and GPA stats for the school in return. As opposed to just the pure luck of being born into a wealthy or political family and getting an Ivy education that will continue to make them more wealthy than their state U middle class peers even if they had lower stats.

Well I’m glad you think your kid is special but nobody else does.

They can definitely be rewarded for their superb work with massive merit aid at the University of Alabama or even full scholarships at many midrange (but very nice) private schools that cost $55k a year and not $90k a year.

Tim Cook, who is CEO of the richest corporation in human history, went to Auburn.

The current President of the United States went to U Delaware. The VP went to Howard. The Speaker of the House went to Louisiana State.

Success comes from talent and work, nobody hands it out at Yale.

Anecdotes are really not an effective way to prove a point. For every Tim Cook, there are 100 Stanford, Harvard, etc graduates or dropouts that have a net worth probably 100x+ of Tim Cook considering he was not a company founder.

At least use the founder of Nvidia as an example…though while he did undergrad at Oregon State he did grad work at Stanford.

The Google guys also credit Stanford and its connections far more than UMD.

Steve Jobs went to Reed and dropped out.

Steve Wozniak went to UColorado and was expelled. Then he went to De Anza College (COMMUNITY COLLEGE) before transferring to Berkeley.

Most senior executives at Fortune 500s are not Ivy+ grads.

So, again...your examples of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are actually more questioning why college is needed in general vs. State U vs. elite school.

Most Fortune 500 Execs are not Ivy+ grads, however, something like 20-25% of Fortune 500 CEOs are Ivy+ grads. They are still over-represented massively compared to the number of kids that attend.

I am in agreement that you don't need to attend these schools, but again, anecdotes don't prove the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Screwed from getting into an Ivy in order to get a Federal job? Kids can go to GMU if they want to make $180K. I'm not sure of what we're being screwed out of.

Ofc you know. It's kids who work just as hard as kids with hooks. Some of that is simply due to family circumstances (kids can't change the fact they're not first gen). And yet, other kids get preference -in terms of admittance and maybe aid- because of those things, and get them at top schools.

You think GMU or Radford or Nova are so great? Why don't you send your kid there?

Class-A snobbery in action.

For sure I would send my kid to George Mason. It’s on their list. It’s a great bargain.

My only concern is it’s too close to home, I hope they will have the experience of being away from home on their own for school.

Radford is too small and isolated for them.

They are already going to NOVA through dual enrollment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

I feel like you may have missed the spirit of that word "volunteer" on account of maybe being kind of a selfish and terrible person?

I'm in the same donut hole for salary you are--only worse, actually, because I bet we have less cash. I value education enough to take out loans to send my kid to the best possible school they can attend. We applied to state schools, but I'm not convinced they're the best option. And certainly not the default because I'm whining about how poor I am... when I'm not.

Ah, but that’s the elephant in the room.

It’s the equivalent of a second mortgage to debt finance a T20 school.

If you think it’s worth it, I support you, it’s your money. Same if you don’t want to do it. Your kid, your decision.

What we see from a lot of parents here is well actually, no, if I have to borrow it myself then these schools aren’t the magic bullet to success and aren’t worth spending their own money.

“But I don’t have it!” Yes you do, you can borrow all of it with no collateral. Then pay it over time. There are zero other times in life a bank will give you basically unlimited capital just based on a handshake and a smile.

If you can afford $35k a year for state school you can pay $80k a year if you space it out over ten years, look at that it’s $32k a year plus some interest. Same amount, roughly speaking.

That's assuming you are paying that $35k out of pocket every year. We pay a similar amount for our kids but it's from money we took pains to save over 18+ years. So, no, we aren't going to pay another $35k/year over several more years. Which is fine. I'm happy with the education my kids are getting at their affordable schools. Neither needs to go to an Ivy. DH and I went to state schools and have a happy life and good careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

Your kid’s education was subsidized both by the state and by a scholarship but you didn’t get a handout?

No, they earned it with high stats and crazy hard work and they raise the test score and GPA stats for the school in return. As opposed to just the pure luck of being born into a wealthy or political family and getting an Ivy education that will continue to make them more wealthy than their state U middle class peers even if they had lower stats.

Well I’m glad you think your kid is special but nobody else does.

They can definitely be rewarded for their superb work with massive merit aid at the University of Alabama or even full scholarships at many midrange (but very nice) private schools that cost $55k a year and not $90k a year.

Tim Cook, who is CEO of the richest corporation in human history, went to Auburn.

The current President of the United States went to U Delaware. The VP went to Howard. The Speaker of the House went to Louisiana State.

Success comes from talent and work, nobody hands it out at Yale.

Anecdotes are really not an effective way to prove a point. For every Tim Cook, there are 100 Stanford, Harvard, etc graduates or dropouts that have a net worth probably 100x+ of Tim Cook considering he was not a company founder.

At least use the founder of Nvidia as an example…though while he did undergrad at Oregon State he did grad work at Stanford.

The Google guys also credit Stanford and its connections far more than UMD.

Steve Jobs went to Reed and dropped out.

Steve Wozniak went to UColorado and was expelled. Then he went to De Anza College (COMMUNITY COLLEGE) before transferring to Berkeley.

Most senior executives at Fortune 500s are not Ivy+ grads.

So, again...your examples of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are actually more questioning why college is needed in general vs. State U vs. elite school.

Most Fortune 500 Execs are not Ivy+ grads, however, something like 20-25% of Fortune 500 CEOs are Ivy+ grads. They are still over-represented massively compared to the number of kids that attend.

I am in agreement that you don't need to attend these schools, but again, anecdotes don't prove the point.

Speaking of data, 99.9% of workers will never become founders or Fortune 500 CEOs so why spend any time at all worrying about which school produces disproportionate outcomes when chances are your kid will be (at best) middle management or a GS-12 and not Secretary of the Treasury?

[Anonymous]

I live in southern state, where I have interviewed with a few Ivy League graduates. "No thanks!" They have been taught what to think, not how to think. I am quite happy attending a Midwestern Graduate Program, while albeit easy (too easy) that allows me to think from all sides. I don't live life in a bubble, and am grateful for it.

[Anonymous]

I see our resident class troll has another boring day in his mom’s basement.

[Anonymous]

I don't want my kids to go to college. I do want them to get out of the house though. Luckily they don't care for it either and don't have clear career goals.
Older one is going to UDC Community College or Nova. Younger one may go where is friends go just to go somewhere.
It helps not to have friends who would ask where the boys will be going and we have money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are thousands of us out there that don’t want Ivies for our kids. You do realize this, don’t you?

Does not compute for the DCUM brain which is obsessed to the point of madness with status and one-upmanship.

I went to an Ivy. Not the ideal undergrad experience (maybe excepting Brown).

Great idea for grad school, the professional schools especially, but they don’t care where you went for undergrad for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

Your kid’s education was subsidized both by the state and by a scholarship but you didn’t get a handout?

No, they earned it with high stats and crazy hard work and they raise the test score and GPA stats for the school in return. As opposed to just the pure luck of being born into a wealthy or political family and getting an Ivy education that will continue to make them more wealthy than their state U middle class peers even if they had lower stats.

Well I’m glad you think your kid is special but nobody else does.

They can definitely be rewarded for their superb work with massive merit aid at the University of Alabama or even full scholarships at many midrange (but very nice) private schools that cost $55k a year and not $90k a year.

Tim Cook, who is CEO of the richest corporation in human history, went to Auburn.

The current President of the United States went to U Delaware. The VP went to Howard. The Speaker of the House went to Louisiana State.

Success comes from talent and work, nobody hands it out at Yale.

Anecdotes are really not an effective way to prove a point. For every Tim Cook, there are 100 Stanford, Harvard, etc graduates or dropouts that have a net worth probably 100x+ of Tim Cook considering he was not a company founder.

At least use the founder of Nvidia as an example…though while he did undergrad at Oregon State he did grad work at Stanford.

The Google guys also credit Stanford and its connections far more than UMD.

Steve Jobs went to Reed and dropped out.

Steve Wozniak went to UColorado and was expelled. Then he went to De Anza College (COMMUNITY COLLEGE) before transferring to Berkeley.

Most senior executives at Fortune 500s are not Ivy+ grads.

So, again...your examples of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are actually more questioning why college is needed in general vs. State U vs. elite school.

Most Fortune 500 Execs are not Ivy+ grads, however, something like 20-25% of Fortune 500 CEOs are Ivy+ grads. They are still over-represented massively compared to the number of kids that attend.

I am in agreement that you don't need to attend these schools, but again, anecdotes don't prove the point.

Speaking of data, 99.9% of workers will never become founders or Fortune 500 CEOs so why spend any time at all worrying about which school produces disproportionate outcomes when chances are your kid will be (at best) middle management or a GS-12 and not Secretary of the Treasury?

I completely agree with you...hence, why it never makes sense to say "Tim Cook went to Auburn and now he is Apple CEO", which is a unicorn anecdote. Same as "Jeff Bezos went to Princeton and founded Amazon" which is another unicorn anecdote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

Your kid’s education was subsidized both by the state and by a scholarship but you didn’t get a handout?

No, they earned it with high stats and crazy hard work and they raise the test score and GPA stats for the school in return. As opposed to just the pure luck of being born into a wealthy or political family and getting an Ivy education that will continue to make them more wealthy than their state U middle class peers even if they had lower stats.

PP, if you are teaching your kids this attitude, that is why they will be doomed, not because they went to a state university instead of an Ivy.