Sorry DCUM middle class, your kids are screwed for college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FAFSA previously benefitted those who went on extravagant vacations and penalized those who scrimped to save. Not sure how new FAFSA works.

My friend ended up quitting her $70k job 5 years before her kids went into college - they did the math with a financial planner and if all 3 of her kids were going to college determined they would almost all get a free ride without her salary and they could rely on her husbands only. She picked up off the books babysitting work and now with 3 kids in college figure they are ahead at least $200k by her NOT working.

Crazy…

What colleges are we talking about? I mean, literally, 97% of colleges won't give you a free ride at that income. I assume the vast majority of kids even where your friend lives end up going to a regional state college where there is little aid for anyone.

I guess you have to be lucky enough to live in the middle of nowhere, earn in probably the top 3% of incomes for middle of nowhere, and have kids that can get accepted to Top 20 schools.

Free rides to Columbia and Colgate.

They were asked to move to PA for work - got a moving bonus plus maintained their salary. So they know they were lucky. They did not have much saved for college since they were in manhattan- so by moving they more than doubled their salary from a COLA perspective.

They went to talk to a financial advisor about best way to invest new windfall in a 529 - that is when they were advised that if they thought kids would go to top schools and if they could live off just his income it would be better for her to quit her job.

OK. I think the major premise of your scenario is you have to get accepted to a top, private school.

Look it’s very simple, anyone can do it.

First have two high paying jobs and keep those exact salaries when you move to a super low COL area so your purchasing power doubles. NYC to say, Dubois, PA works.

Then get a windfall lump sum. Don’t put it anywhere a college can see it or touch it. Definitely not a 529!!! Not in the savings account!!! Bury it in the yard or something.

Quit your $70k a year job, you don’t need it. Do some light babysitting off the books. 98% pay cut for the win!!

Next, get your kid into an Ivy (4% admit rate) where they cover tuition 100% if you make less than $150k with typical assets (keep quiet about the money buried in the yard).

Then get the other kid into an equally challenging school (17% admit rate) that charges 10% of your income as tuition so you only pay $15,000 instead of $62,000

Great for them but maybe not a realistic plan for the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Screwed because you're obsessed with colleges where it's statistically unlikely to be accepted?

Really, it's a self-imposed situation. If you just look beyond the few dozen schools that are like that and get excited about the hundreds (thousands?) of others, this process isn't nearly as stressful.

Right, I realize my kids don't have a shot at top 25 schools. But, there are plenty of schools they can go to that will get them a good education and put them on a nice path in life.

The only people freaking out are those who have totally gone down the "prestige" rabbit hole.

Well, we want the best for our kids. You don't, and that's fine, too.

See, you're what I'm talking about. You're so blinkered and parochial, you think there's only one potential path that will lead to success and happiness (though I doubt you care much if your kids are happy).

I'm realistic about where my kids are likely to get in. I don't see a need to drive them and me crazy during their high school years reaching for a nearly unobtainable brass ring.

You know they'll be rejected.

95% of applicants are rejected from Ivies; it’s a fair assumption unless one has a great hook.

Some people do win the lottery, but if your primary financial plan is “well I’ll just win the lottery” everyone would rightly consider you a fool.

This is why all the trolling on this doesn’t work.

Yes, I know my kid won’t get in. My plan is not “win the lottery”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Screwed because you're obsessed with colleges where it's statistically unlikely to be accepted?

Really, it's a self-imposed situation. If you just look beyond the few dozen schools that are like that and get excited about the hundreds (thousands?) of others, this process isn't nearly as stressful.

Right, I realize my kids don't have a shot at top 25 schools. But, there are plenty of schools they can go to that will get them a good education and put them on a nice path in life.

The only people freaking out are those who have totally gone down the "prestige" rabbit hole.

Well, we want the best for our kids. You don't, and that's fine, too.

See, you're what I'm talking about. You're so blinkered and parochial, you think there's only one potential path that will lead to success and happiness (though I doubt you care much if your kids are happy).

I'm realistic about where my kids are likely to get in. I don't see a need to drive them and me crazy during their high school years reaching for a nearly unobtainable brass ring.

You know they'll be rejected.

Yes. As your kids will almost certainly be. Even if your kid devotes his entire high school life to being the "perfect" candidate, it'll essentially come down to the admissions department doing a random drawing out of a hat.

Does that sound like a rational plan to you? Having your kid kill themselves for a 10% (or less) chance of getting into a school?

Kids are working themselves to mental breakdowns only to get into a good state flagship. But that’s what it takes now. It’s all insane.

What’s wrong with going to a good state flagship? As long as they have the majors you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Screwed because you're obsessed with colleges where it's statistically unlikely to be accepted?

Really, it's a self-imposed situation. If you just look beyond the few dozen schools that are like that and get excited about the hundreds (thousands?) of others, this process isn't nearly as stressful.

Right, I realize my kids don't have a shot at top 25 schools. But, there are plenty of schools they can go to that will get them a good education and put them on a nice path in life.

The only people freaking out are those who have totally gone down the "prestige" rabbit hole.

Well, we want the best for our kids. You don't, and that's fine, too.

See, you're what I'm talking about. You're so blinkered and parochial, you think there's only one potential path that will lead to success and happiness (though I doubt you care much if your kids are happy).

I'm realistic about where my kids are likely to get in. I don't see a need to drive them and me crazy during their high school years reaching for a nearly unobtainable brass ring.

You know they'll be rejected.

Yes. As your kids will almost certainly be. Even if your kid devotes his entire high school life to being the "perfect" candidate, it'll essentially come down to the admissions department doing a random drawing out of a hat.

Does that sound like a rational plan to you? Having your kid kill themselves for a 10% (or less) chance of getting into a school?

Kids are working themselves to mental breakdowns only to get into a good state flagship. But that’s what it takes now. It’s all insane.

What’s wrong with going to a good state flagship? As long as they have the majors you want.

Nothing. Do you think it should take a 4.0 and and a 1400 to get in though? I don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FAFSA previously benefitted those who went on extravagant vacations and penalized those who scrimped to save. Not sure how new FAFSA works.

My friend ended up quitting her $70k job 5 years before her kids went into college - they did the math with a financial planner and if all 3 of her kids were going to college determined they would almost all get a free ride without her salary and they could rely on her husbands only. She picked up off the books babysitting work and now with 3 kids in college figure they are ahead at least $200k by her NOT working.

Crazy…

What colleges are we talking about? I mean, literally, 97% of colleges won't give you a free ride at that income. I assume the vast majority of kids even where your friend lives end up going to a regional state college where there is little aid for anyone.

I guess you have to be lucky enough to live in the middle of nowhere, earn in probably the top 3% of incomes for middle of nowhere, and have kids that can get accepted to Top 20 schools.

I don’t even get the math.

You give up $70k of income, for 3 kids in college that’s 12 years so -$840k.

Ignore the opportunity costs of lost investment income and taxes for now to keep it simple.

Assume the kids go to 80k/year T50 for 12 college-years that’s $960,000 in tuition.

At $120k annual income it’s no free ride maybe you get the net cost down by half to 40k. So $40k per year x 12 is $480,000 in savings.

Golly fellas which number is larger, 840 or 480.

As the kids say, congrats you played yourself.

With 70k salary you only take home 42k. It usually doesn’t take 12 years for 3 kids to finish college. Top colleges ask you to pay no more than 20k a year if household income is 120k AGI 100k. Lastly don’t forget the value of all your free time, be it time spent with your family or $ from a side hustle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FAFSA previously benefitted those who went on extravagant vacations and penalized those who scrimped to save. Not sure how new FAFSA works.

My friend ended up quitting her $70k job 5 years before her kids went into college - they did the math with a financial planner and if all 3 of her kids were going to college determined they would almost all get a free ride without her salary and they could rely on her husbands only. She picked up off the books babysitting work and now with 3 kids in college figure they are ahead at least $200k by her NOT working.

Crazy…

What colleges are we talking about? I mean, literally, 97% of colleges won't give you a free ride at that income. I assume the vast majority of kids even where your friend lives end up going to a regional state college where there is little aid for anyone.

I guess you have to be lucky enough to live in the middle of nowhere, earn in probably the top 3% of incomes for middle of nowhere, and have kids that can get accepted to Top 20 schools.

I don’t even get the math.

You give up $70k of income, for 3 kids in college that’s 12 years so -$840k.

Ignore the opportunity costs of lost investment income and taxes for now to keep it simple.

Assume the kids go to 80k/year T50 for 12 college-years that’s $960,000 in tuition.

At $120k annual income it’s no free ride maybe you get the net cost down by half to 40k. So $40k per year x 12 is $480,000 in savings.

Golly fellas which number is larger, 840 or 480.

As the kids say, congrats you played yourself.

Or maybe the person would only have their kids in college for 7 years - so all kids are born 4 years apart. There is also fed and state taxes on her income - you forgot to deduct that. And now they are also in a lower tax bracket.

So more like she gave up less than $343 in income to get significantly more than $500k of return.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/college-acceptance-rates-ivy-league-schools-wealth.html

Basically it seems athlete, monied donor, first gen (the new proxy for race), legacy are about it.

I hate the examples that so many books give for how the balance the athletic “allotment” - they may need a piccolo player in the band. I was in the band at an Ivy; it’s run by the students and there is zero interaction with administrators other than permission to play at games and rent buses. It is nothing like the bureaucracy advocating for athletics. I guess MAYBE at a Big10 school with world class marching band? But theater and music and debate teams at T25 schools aren’t coordinating with admissions about their future slots or participating population, that’s just a polite fiction, there just isn’t enough administrative support to even make those assessments let alone factor into admittance.

I think the article is actually under reporting the dead zone salary - $222k in manhattan?! I’m guessing probably $150k to $500k — they are looking for donors and two Fed employees making $180k aren’t going to be writing big checks.

They know not many donut holes would enroll because they would end up where merit money is or otherwise go in-state. They deny donuts because either they'll ruin yield or even if they enroll, none of their families would write donation checks or offer any other perks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FAFSA previously benefitted those who went on extravagant vacations and penalized those who scrimped to save. Not sure how new FAFSA works.

My friend ended up quitting her $70k job 5 years before her kids went into college - they did the math with a financial planner and if all 3 of her kids were going to college determined they would almost all get a free ride without her salary and they could rely on her husbands only. She picked up off the books babysitting work and now with 3 kids in college figure they are ahead at least $200k by her NOT working.

Crazy…

What colleges are we talking about? I mean, literally, 97% of colleges won't give you a free ride at that income. I assume the vast majority of kids even where your friend lives end up going to a regional state college where there is little aid for anyone.

I guess you have to be lucky enough to live in the middle of nowhere, earn in probably the top 3% of incomes for middle of nowhere, and have kids that can get accepted to Top 20 schools.

I don’t even get the math.

You give up $70k of income, for 3 kids in college that’s 12 years so -$840k.

Ignore the opportunity costs of lost investment income and taxes for now to keep it simple.

Assume the kids go to 80k/year T50 for 12 college-years that’s $960,000 in tuition.

At $120k annual income it’s no free ride maybe you get the net cost down by half to 40k. So $40k per year x 12 is $480,000 in savings.

Golly fellas which number is larger, 840 or 480.

As the kids say, congrats you played yourself.

With 70k salary you only take home 42k. It usually doesn’t take 12 years for 3 kids to finish college. Top colleges ask you to pay no more than 20k a year if household income is 120k AGI 100k. Lastly don’t forget the value of all your free time, be it time spent with your family or $ from a side hustle.

Hold on I can barely add here.

How many years of college do you pay for with three kids again?

Kid 1- 4 years of tuition
Kid 2- 4 years of tuition
Kid 3- 4 years of tuition

Those years can overlap of course but it’s always going to be 12 years worth of tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/college-acceptance-rates-ivy-league-schools-wealth.html

Basically it seems athlete, monied donor, first gen (the new proxy for race), legacy are about it.

I hate the examples that so many books give for how the balance the athletic “allotment” - they may need a piccolo player in the band. I was in the band at an Ivy; it’s run by the students and there is zero interaction with administrators other than permission to play at games and rent buses. It is nothing like the bureaucracy advocating for athletics. I guess MAYBE at a Big10 school with world class marching band? But theater and music and debate teams at T25 schools aren’t coordinating with admissions about their future slots or participating population, that’s just a polite fiction, there just isn’t enough administrative support to even make those assessments let alone factor into admittance.

I think the article is actually under reporting the dead zone salary - $222k in manhattan?! I’m guessing probably $150k to $500k — they are looking for donors and two Fed employees making $180k aren’t going to be writing big checks.

DCUM has argued for the longest time that poor white, first Gen students were shut out by wealthy AA students and suddenly being first Gen is a proxy for race?

Who is DCUM? You are on here, were you arguing that?

[Anonymous]

Apply to a private school.
If you get in, donate from year one onwards. (About half whatever the tuition amount is).
Every year.
Then, senior year, make short list of 3-5 schools and send it into the guidance office.
You kid will get into an Ivy easy.
Grades are unnecessary.
Most good counselors and teachers at the nation’s top private schools will explain this to you, but only if you pay.

[Anonymous]

Geez. Y’all are so cynical

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Happy our kid has DH's GI Bill, I guess.

That is a pretty amazing gift to your kid. I hope your kid appreciates it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we’ve been complaining about that here for years. That’s why our high stat, heavy EC, volunteer kids mostly end up taking a scholarship to Big State U. Our kids are too privileged for a hand up and not privileged enough for a handout. No one cares about them.

Your kid’s education was subsidized both by the state and by a scholarship but you didn’t get a handout?

No, they earned it with high stats and crazy hard work and they raise the test score and GPA stats for the school in return. As opposed to just the pure luck of being born into a wealthy or political family and getting an Ivy education that will continue to make them more wealthy than their state U middle class peers even if they had lower stats.

Well I’m glad you think your kid is special but nobody else does.

They can definitely be rewarded for their superb work with massive merit aid at the University of Alabama or even full scholarships at many midrange (but very nice) private schools that cost $55k a year and not $90k a year.

Tim Cook, who is CEO of the richest corporation in human history, went to Auburn.

The current President of the United States went to U Delaware. The VP went to Howard. The Speaker of the House went to Louisiana State.

Success comes from talent and work, nobody hands it out at Yale.

Anecdotes are really not an effective way to prove a point. For every Tim Cook, there are 100 Stanford, Harvard, etc graduates or dropouts that have a net worth probably 100x+ of Tim Cook considering he was not a company founder.

At least use the founder of Nvidia as an example…though while he did undergrad at Oregon State he did grad work at Stanford.

The Google guys also credit Stanford and its connections far more than UMD.

Steve Jobs went to Reed and dropped out.

Steve Wozniak went to UColorado and was expelled. Then he went to De Anza College (COMMUNITY COLLEGE) before transferring to Berkeley.

Most senior executives at Fortune 500s are not Ivy+ grads.

This type of economic/social mobility rarely happens these days. You are bringing up two examples from the 1970s. Sure - we've all heard of the plucky secretary who grinds her way up to the c-suite (40+ years ago). That sort of thing just doesn't happen any more. There is intense gatekeeping in most career fields, where if you don't have a masters (or multiple) from the right schools in the right majors, you are locked out.

This only applies to big consulting, and ibanking. Otherwise undergrad doesn’t matter where u go.

[Anonymous]

Do you not have siblings, OP???

The middle child always gets cast aside.

Middle kids have been making their own way forever. It creates a good work ethic, creativity and resiliance. Embrace it.

Those who are first always get every advantage and resource.

Those on the bottom are coddled and given things.

The middle child gets ignored.

Why should college be any different?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you not have siblings, OP???

The middle child always gets cast aside.

Middle kids have been making their own way forever. It creates a good work ethic, creativity and resiliance. Embrace it.

Those who are first always get every advantage and resource.

Those on the bottom are coddled and given things.

The middle child gets ignored.

Why should college be any different?

haha. that's kind of an accurate comparison.