Think twice before hiring an advocate…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the 2e kids who ARE quite close to grade level but could be doing much more if they weren't managing to create their own supports. Also, they are probably struggling with a lot of issues that are non-academic.

I agree that the public school probably can't offer what is actually needed, and I feel for the teachers who are stuck in the middle. We ended up having to go private to get what we need - to a private SN school, even though our kid would have fallen into the category you describe with being almost at grade level.

On the other hand, of course, I agree you need to assume good intent. We went into our first IEP meeting with an advocate because our neuropsych basically told us we would need one, and I felt like she was way too antogonistic.

What you are saying is 100 percent true. To get a 2E kid their ideal perfect education, you sometimes have to go private. But many families can’t afford that nor afford an advocate, and it’s just not fair that a child who is achieving well but not as well as they COULD earns the resources over a child who is so low that they might not learn to read without supports.

The thing is - the way this is being framed is illegal. The law says that decisions about whether a kid qualifies for an IEP and what should be in that IEP are to be made without reference to the available resources of the schools system.

If you want to be mad that you have too many kids and not enough resources, be mad at the federal government for not giving more funding for this to states, be mad at state and local authorities for not appropriating more funding, and be mad at yourselves and your bosses. You have so many managerial problems and you never fix them. They cost your time and aggravation.

I have zero sympathy for my school system - MCPS - who for years has had a caseload of dyslexic students and has never until the last few years started to put in structural supports and train teachers in dyslexia-appropriate reading instruction.

I see that schools, despite having dozens of kids with ADHD, still use shame as their main behavioral management tool and do not have any systemic supports for ADHD. They do not have packages of instruction tailored to the kinds of reading comp problems that ADHD kids have. There are no special instruction packages for dysgraphia. Teachers lack training to know how to support students with depression and anxiety in school. Worse, on a personal level, many teachers are ignorant about these disorders and thus shame these students instead of helping them.

FAPE isn't a competition between students to see who is worse off and needs it more. FAPE is a civil right held by each student, created by a state and society who knows that disabled students have academic potential that must be met in order to have stable jobs and lives and become taxpayer citizens who contribute to the state. FAPE is an investment in our country's human capital. FAPE (and IDEA, Sec 504 and the ADA) is also a safety net for every individual. Historically, our society has thought of disabled people as not able to learn or participate in society or worse as somehow responsible for being disabled. But the reality is that every day you and your family wake up whole and healthy is a blessing because at any moment one of us or our loved ones could fall ill or be injured. Can you imagine being told that you are only allowed to have the resources necessary to develop up to "almost average"????

It is not up to the OP and her IEP team to decide that some kids are deserving of public investment and others are not. If a parent's assertion of their own child's civil rights was so offensive to your peers that they quit, then they did not have an adequate understanding of their profession, and it's good for all of us that they move on.

I have seen many kids who tried and failed to get IEPs or 504s, and I assure you the consequences are devastating even for those that are "almost average" - depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, de-motivation and even suicidality. It's just as tragic as a kid who doesn't learn to read, but in a different way. Our disabilities are not your pain Olympics, OP.

[Anonymous]

I believe that teachers are quitting and that it’s painful to see. I haven’t needed an advocate yet and our IEP meetings have been positive and respectful. But my child has needs that the school is able to meet and we happily supplement with private support outside of school hours, which we are lucky to be able to afford. I can’t imagine being either a parent or a teacher trying to address these situations where the school just doesn’t have the resources to help. It must be so hard on both sides. I wish I knew what the answer was besides continuing to try to have better resources from the school system.


Also, if there’s a private school in the DMV that is good for 2e kids please let me know what it is. We have looked and looked and there’s nothing that would work for my kids profile and while elementary school is ok I am really concerned about my kids ability to deal with the public middle school we are slated for. But we have gone through the counseling out process before and I never want to live through that again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a special education teacher (I also have a child with an IEP, so I have personal skin in the game). We just got the news that two of our fellow teachers have quit following a prolonged battle with a family and their advocate. This family required at least four IEP meetings to get to an IEP they’d be willing to sign- insulting and demoralizing two excellent teachers in the process who hadn’t even WORKED with the child yet.

Mostly I’m just asking you to assume good will. Stop coming into meetings assuming we want to screw your child’s life up and deny them FAPE. This was a particularly egregious case for me because it’s a child whose academics are so close to grade level!! And we were offering the child a good supportive plan to help them get there.
We are doing the best we can to serve ALL students with needs and come Monday my caseload is about 5 students higher. You don’t need to hire an advocate before you even meet with the team once. We aren’t out to deny your kid what they need to succeed academically.

With all due respect you don’t know your coworkers prejudices. I’m BIPOC and my brother had a 504 and now my DS has an iep. I can tell you stories about teachers being extremely prejudiced that you probably would not believe because you would never have the opportunity to experience. Your experience as a SPED teacher in an iep meeting is not the same as just a random parent and you are likely not treated the same way someone else would be. It’s not wrong for them to want to feel that there is someone protecting their interests when, at least for me, in our iep meetings there’s always a billion people who I don’t even know that are present who use a bunch of jargon describing their relevance that is not particularly accessible to the average person. I personally would not hire an advocate with a combative style but again people aren’t wrong to want an advocate present. I’m a lawyer and there are so many stupid things where people have representation that are so much less important than an iep meeting.

Also if you quit because of working with one unpleasant family I find it hard to believe you were really planning on staying long-term.

[Anonymous]

NP here. We went into our first IEP with the best of intentions and without an advocate. The school team made a mockery of the process and actually had to reschedule it due to their incompetence in preparing the necessary reports. We hired an advocate for all subsequent meetings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guess what lady, if I’d actually gotten responses to my inquiries about how my child’s IEP was being implemented, maybe I wouldn’t have needed to hire an advocate. When all I got is radio silence, I did what I needed to to make sure my child got wax he was legally entitled to.

Brava, well-said. I got more than radio silence; the social worker and the school psych both JUMPED on me with a gotcha face when I said we might consider seeing an outside provider if necessary, then twisted our words around to deny an IEP because “the parents will be getting external access to resources.” It was sad to see them think they are doing a great service by eliminating the need for additional tax dollars spent on a child.

Umm. This is not a legally valid reason to deny an IEP. Please re-request the IEP or appeal the IEP denial (depending how much time has passed) and cite the legally invalid reason for denial in your written request.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know this doesn't sound nice, but the purpose of special education is to help students with disabilities access the general education curriculum. It isn't to help children reach their highest potential. That sounds rough, but it is the legal truth. It would be great if schools could individually help each child reach their potential, but that isn't special education. A child with a disability who is performing at or near grade level is accessing the curriculum (assuming we're focused on academics in this example, not other areas of need). It is okay (and good!) to want more for your kid if you think they can achieve more than grade-level. But look somewhere other than special ed.

This is reaching qanon levels of misinformation. The Endrew F case set precedent that every child should have the chance to meet objectives that reasonably challenge them, not de minimus progress.

[Anonymous]

I love how none of these clowns want to blame the central office for understaffing and not hiring paras, team leaders for assigning too many kids to a caseload, etc. But no. It must be the evil parents' faults for wanting their kids to access services they are legally entitled to! How dare they! I'm a retired Special Ed teacher and I worked with a lot of low Praxis score idiots like the OP. Parents, please never feel anything resembling guilt for getting your child what they are required by law to have.

[Anonymous]

Please keep one fact in mind when interacting with your advocate. They are being paid to find things the school is doing wrong.

[Anonymous]

Parents usually get an advocate when they have tried for years to get their child services and have failed. Blame the school system for the teachers quitting- not the parents. The system is set up to make everything difficult for families and their kids and often teachers are just part of this system

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this doesn't sound nice, but the purpose of special education is to help students with disabilities access the general education curriculum. It isn't to help children reach their highest potential. That sounds rough, but it is the legal truth. It would be great if schools could individually help each child reach their potential, but that isn't special education. A child with a disability who is performing at or near grade level is accessing the curriculum (assuming we're focused on academics in this example, not other areas of need). It is okay (and good!) to want more for your kid if you think they can achieve more than grade-level. But look somewhere other than special ed.

This is reaching qanon levels of misinformation. The Endrew F case set precedent that every child should have the chance to meet objectives that reasonably challenge them, not de minimus progress.

+1. The prior PP is total misinformation. My kid has an IEP for speech articulation despite being way ahead of grade level across the board. Part of the reason he got so ahead was because he had to learn to write requests to teachers on paper starting in PK3 so they could understand him. He has made huge progress with his DCPS-provided SLP who identified an underlying medical issue that our previous private provider did not. The progress was astounding after surgical correction. Now he just sounds like a kid who could benefit from some articulation lessons rather than being incomprehensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow. This post just makes me even more sure that the decision to homeschool my 2E kids was the best one. I realize teaching is hard. OP, sounds like you should move on to a different career.

I'm amazed I didn't write this! I had the same thoughts.

-another homeschooler with a 2e kid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm also a teacher and also have 2 kids with IEPs and this is a ridiculous post. Like every teacher I have dealt with my share of PITA parents, and it's no fun. But at the end of the day it's no parent's fault that a teacher decides to quit. And every parent has the right to bring an advocate.

Don't come in the special needs board and shame parents for advocating for their kids.

I am shaming parents for acting like their kid is the only kid in the school and that a free and appropriate public education means your kid has to be set up for Harvard. I think special education is eventually going to fail completely because of parents like this asking for the moon, and then only rich kids with disabilities will get anything. Of course, you only care about your own child so that doesn’t bother you. Disgusting honestly and why our society is heading to the trash

One of the most important and heartening lessons a teacher needs to learn is that they are your students, but they are their parents' whole world. They should be fighting for their kid. A whole class of parents who care enough to show up for their kids is much better than the alternative.

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to say I am so grateful for our Ed Advocate (Rich Weinfeld Group) who helped find the right placement for our AuDHD kid after being blown off by his MS for three years be/c he was getting Cs.

I mean Cs are almost grade level right? We should have been happy according to the OP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know that many of you have had negative experiences, and I’m truly sorry about that. As a special education teacher, I have had some students with advocates that were ridiculous. We had multiple meetings where the advocate wanted to argue over every word. It should not take four meetings to finalize an IEP, especially when the school and parent were in agreement. I’ve worked with several advocates who got into the field because of their own child’s needs, and they seemed to think that every child needed what their kid did.

Some advocates have been professional and reasonable, and if you need one, I hope you get one of those.

NP. I am what FCPS has created. You might be talking about me and the advocate that supported me and my kids. Yes, we'd argue over every single word because at every opportunity, FCPS has screwed us when we were not precise. From clarifying that 'reading' was not the same thing as 'comprehension' to how to measure goals, my bulldog of an advocate was proven correct in her insistence on precision.

You and other teachers, as individuals, may be great - and I assume individual teachers are unless I have experiences to the contrary. It's 'the system' that has made me what I am. When the PSL instructs the school team to delete everything you and the team has agreed to and the 'draft' IEP you took home to review before signing is the only copy of what the entire team agreed to, yeah, I have little goodwill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the 2e kids who ARE quite close to grade level but could be doing much more if they weren't managing to create their own supports. Also, they are probably struggling with a lot of issues that are non-academic.

I agree that the public school probably can't offer what is actually needed, and I feel for the teachers who are stuck in the middle. We ended up having to go private to get what we need - to a private SN school, even though our kid would have fallen into the category you describe with being almost at grade level.

On the other hand, of course, I agree you need to assume good intent. We went into our first IEP meeting with an advocate because our neuropsych basically told us we would need one, and I felt like she was way too antogonistic.

What you are saying is 100 percent true. To get a 2E kid their ideal perfect education, you sometimes have to go private. But many families can’t afford that nor afford an advocate, and it’s just not fair that a child who is achieving well but not as well as they COULD earns the resources over a child who is so low that they might not learn to read without supports.

The thing is - the way this is being framed is illegal. The law says that decisions about whether a kid qualifies for an IEP and what should be in that IEP are to be made without reference to the available resources of the schools system.

If you want to be mad that you have too many kids and not enough resources, be mad at the federal government for not giving more funding for this to states, be mad at state and local authorities for not appropriating more funding, and be mad at yourselves and your bosses. You have so many managerial problems and you never fix them. They cost your time and aggravation.

I have zero sympathy for my school system - MCPS - who for years has had a caseload of dyslexic students and has never until the last few years started to put in structural supports and train teachers in dyslexia-appropriate reading instruction.

I see that schools, despite having dozens of kids with ADHD, still use shame as their main behavioral management tool and do not have any systemic supports for ADHD. They do not have packages of instruction tailored to the kinds of reading comp problems that ADHD kids have. There are no special instruction packages for dysgraphia. Teachers lack training to know how to support students with depression and anxiety in school. Worse, on a personal level, many teachers are ignorant about these disorders and thus shame these students instead of helping them.

FAPE isn't a competition between students to see who is worse off and needs it more. FAPE is a civil right held by each student, created by a state and society who knows that disabled students have academic potential that must be met in order to have stable jobs and lives and become taxpayer citizens who contribute to the state. FAPE is an investment in our country's human capital. FAPE (and IDEA, Sec 504 and the ADA) is also a safety net for every individual. Historically, our society has thought of disabled people as not able to learn or participate in society or worse as somehow responsible for being disabled. But the reality is that every day you and your family wake up whole and healthy is a blessing because at any moment one of us or our loved ones could fall ill or be injured. Can you imagine being told that you are only allowed to have the resources necessary to develop up to "almost average"????

It is not up to the OP and her IEP team to decide that some kids are deserving of public investment and others are not. If a parent's assertion of their own child's civil rights was so offensive to your peers that they quit, then they did not have an adequate understanding of their profession, and it's good for all of us that they move on.

I have seen many kids who tried and failed to get IEPs or 504s, and I assure you the consequences are devastating even for those that are "almost average" - depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, de-motivation and even suicidality. It's just as tragic as a kid who doesn't learn to read, but in a different way. Our disabilities are not your pain Olympics, OP.

I honestly think that some of the blame should go to the education programs that prepare teachers. There is no excuse for ALL teachers not to receive training in how to work with students who have various disabilities like ADHD, anxiety, dyslexia etc., 30 years ago many people assumed that a child with ADHD was just lazy and wants to be a class clown. Sadly there are many teachers who still believe this. My own DS was embarrassed and shamed in 2nd grade by a wholly unprepared new teacher. I literally had to educate her on what ADHD is and how to work with kids like my DS.

So many teachers that I know have told me that they received very little training in working with kids with special needs, and there are many children who spend the majority of their time in the gen ed classroom so these teachers need to be prepared. At the same time, these same teachers have told me that a good amount of their education programs was spent on useless classes and busy work. Time to make a change and better prepare our teachers for the realities of their jobs!