DC council wants to boot cars even if tickets were paid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe DC is starting to take it seriously.

https://dcist.com/story/23/07/10/series-of-d-c-council-bills-aim-to-get-dangerous-drivers-off-the-roads-faster/

This is the turning point where privileged white councilmembers like Charles Allen take the mask off. He is proposing taking away people’s cars, in a city where this will disproportionately affect poor black people, without trial in the name of equity for going 1-10 miles above the speed limit for more than 8 times in a couple of months?!!! So if someone drives 23 mph on a 20 mph street and gets caught 8 times you’re going to steal their car?!!! You cannot make this up.

I guess stealing people’s cars without trial is okay but letting criminals out without bond to commit more crimes, against mostly working class black people, is okay? Yeah…okay.

These haughty, unseasoned bike lane advocates are revealing their true selves.

So nice to see you again, everything-is-racism troll.

That's not the everything-is-racism troll, that's the everything-is-about-the-evils-of-bike-lanes word-salad troll.

Bike lanes aren’t evil, but the closeted racist bike zealots are. Trying to drive black people out of the city by impounding their cars for driving 24 mph and putting up bike lanes in front of historic black churches to make it more difficult for black elders to park in front of their places of worship is a a very slick slight of hand. But we see through it.

Likely the "we" here is the same "we" who hates the bike lanes on Connecticut Avenue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Proposing booting cars with speeding tickets.
Isn't this sort of double jeopardy? Paid your fine but still face extra sanctions?
I could see someone deciding not to pay speeding tickets if they're still at risk for being towed.
IMO it would make more sense for owners of vehicles with multiple tickets to be required to go to traffic school or some such. Or maybe escalating tickets
Many of DC's speed zones are also unreasonable, IMO, or not clearly marked
I got a ticket for traveling at 37 in a 25mph zone, but the speed limit sign was covered by trees

That's not at all what double jeopardy is. And by the way, the "speed limit sign was covered by trees" argument doesn't play well, I get it if it's a stop sign, but speed limit signs are posted multiple times and are available on maps. Just because you didn't look at one of the probably multiple signs doesn't excuse your speed. And if you really thought it did, you could have fought the ticket.

Hmmmm: https://wtop.com/dc/2022/12/md-man-fought-his-100-dc-speeding-ticket-now-its-easier-for-others-to-challenge-theirs/

What a dogshit ruling. Really? There are like a handful of roads in all of DC that have signed speed limits above 25 mph. If you turn on a road and the speed limit sign was before the turn and you drive 40 mph down the road and turn again before the next speed limit sign, did you not break the law? Dogshit!

The ruling is not worth appealing. The most logical response to this would be for DDOT to set the speed limit on every road under their jurisdiction to 20mph. This may inconvenience a few lead-footed drivers but will resolve any semblance of confusion while saving lives and encouraging commuters to adopt more environmentally-friendly modes of transport.

And everyone else who is driving, for whatever purpose they might be driving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe DC is starting to take it seriously.

https://dcist.com/story/23/07/10/series-of-d-c-council-bills-aim-to-get-dangerous-drivers-off-the-roads-faster/

This is the turning point where privileged white councilmembers like Charles Allen take the mask off. He is proposing taking away people’s cars, in a city where this will disproportionately affect poor black people, without trial in the name of equity for going 1-10 miles above the speed limit for more than 8 times in a couple of months?!!! So if someone drives 23 mph on a 20 mph street and gets caught 8 times you’re going to steal their car?!!! You cannot make this up.

I guess stealing people’s cars without trial is okay but letting criminals out without bond to commit more crimes, against mostly working class black people, is okay? Yeah…okay.

These haughty, unseasoned bike lane advocates are revealing their true selves.

So nice to see you again, everything-is-racism troll.

That's not the everything-is-racism troll, that's the everything-is-about-the-evils-of-bike-lanes word-salad troll.

Bike lanes aren’t evil, but the closeted racist bike zealots are. Trying to drive black people out of the city by impounding their cars for driving 24 mph and putting up bike lanes in front of historic black churches to make it more difficult for black elders to park in front of their places of worship is a a very slick slight of hand. But we see through it.

You are calling other people racist but yet are asserting by implication that black people are disproportionately less likely to obey speed limits. I don’t buy that or the notion (apparently accepted by the city executive) that the preferences of a handful of people - many of whom don’t live in DC - to park on a single block for a few hours one day a week should trump the need to protect the life and limb of those who use those roads every day to go to and from work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe DC is starting to take it seriously.

https://dcist.com/story/23/07/10/series-of-d-c-council-bills-aim-to-get-dangerous-drivers-off-the-roads-faster/

This is the turning point where privileged white councilmembers like Charles Allen take the mask off. He is proposing taking away people’s cars, in a city where this will disproportionately affect poor black people, without trial in the name of equity for going 1-10 miles above the speed limit for more than 8 times in a couple of months?!!! So if someone drives 23 mph on a 20 mph street and gets caught 8 times you’re going to steal their car?!!! You cannot make this up.

I guess stealing people’s cars without trial is okay but letting criminals out without bond to commit more crimes, against mostly working class black people, is okay? Yeah…okay.

These haughty, unseasoned bike lane advocates are revealing their true selves.

So nice to see you again, everything-is-racism troll.

That's not the everything-is-racism troll, that's the everything-is-about-the-evils-of-bike-lanes word-salad troll.

Bike lanes aren’t evil, but the closeted racist bike zealots are. Trying to drive black people out of the city by impounding their cars for driving 24 mph and putting up bike lanes in front of historic black churches to make it more difficult for black elders to park in front of their places of worship is a a very slick slight of hand. But we see through it.

You are calling other people racist but yet are asserting by implication that black people are disproportionately less likely to obey speed limits. I don’t buy that or the notion (apparently accepted by the city executive) that the preferences of a handful of people - many of whom don’t live in DC - to park on a single block for a few hours one day a week should trump the need to protect the life and limb of those who use those roads every day to go to and from work.

Guessing that the PP is a Cleveland Park resident who has learned only one thing from the discourse of the past few years - that people don't like it when other people call them racist.

[Anonymous]

The proposed legislation unsurprisingly ignores on multiple levels the explicit representation made to gain support for guilt by machine without meaningful due process that camera tickets would not have points attached to them, would not impact insurance, etc.

In the slow-boiled frog legislative world this is hardly surprising but that doesn’t mean it isn’t outrageous. Under the current regime the ticket alone is prima facie evidence of guilt as long as the “inspection” form for the camera says it was in good working order. This presumes no maintenance person ever made a mistake or (heaven forfend) simply lied on the form. Despite the obvious extortionate purpose of the program and the near complete lack of due process, it was upheld because each individual violation penalty is relatively modest, flagrantly ignoring the enormous amount of revenue DC uses its cameras to obtain. If this legislation passes that calculus may well change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The proposed legislation unsurprisingly ignores on multiple levels the explicit representation made to gain support for guilt by machine without meaningful due process that camera tickets would not have points attached to them, would not impact insurance, etc.

In the slow-boiled frog legislative world this is hardly surprising but that doesn’t mean it isn’t outrageous. Under the current regime the ticket alone is prima facie evidence of guilt as long as the “inspection” form for the camera says it was in good working order. This presumes no maintenance person ever made a mistake or (heaven forfend) simply lied on the form. Despite the obvious extortionate purpose of the program and the near complete lack of due process, it was upheld because each individual violation penalty is relatively modest, flagrantly ignoring the enormous amount of revenue DC uses its cameras to obtain. If this legislation passes that calculus may well change.

The obvious purpose of the program is to deter dangerous driving. If you're a dangerous driver, you might view that as extortion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Proposing booting cars with speeding tickets.
Isn't this sort of double jeopardy? Paid your fine but still face extra sanctions?
I could see someone deciding not to pay speeding tickets if they're still at risk for being towed.
IMO it would make more sense for owners of vehicles with multiple tickets to be required to go to traffic school or some such. Or maybe escalating tickets
Many of DC's speed zones are also unreasonable, IMO, or not clearly marked
I got a ticket for traveling at 37 in a 25mph zone, but the speed limit sign was covered by trees

That's not at all what double jeopardy is. And by the way, the "speed limit sign was covered by trees" argument doesn't play well, I get it if it's a stop sign, but speed limit signs are posted multiple times and are available on maps. Just because you didn't look at one of the probably multiple signs doesn't excuse your speed. And if you really thought it did, you could have fought the ticket.

Hmmmm: https://wtop.com/dc/2022/12/md-man-fought-his-100-dc-speeding-ticket-now-its-easier-for-others-to-challenge-theirs/

What a dogshit ruling. Really? There are like a handful of roads in all of DC that have signed speed limits above 25 mph. If you turn on a road and the speed limit sign was before the turn and you drive 40 mph down the road and turn again before the next speed limit sign, did you not break the law? Dogshit!

You have to post a speed limit. There are a lot of drivers from other states in DC. What’s the point of putting a sign up if no one can see it. DC has planted trees everywhere but the city does not have a tree maintenance plan- pruning, etc. Also the city could put up a speed limit sign facing the wrong way and issue tickets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Proposing booting cars with speeding tickets.
Isn't this sort of double jeopardy? Paid your fine but still face extra sanctions?
I could see someone deciding not to pay speeding tickets if they're still at risk for being towed.
IMO it would make more sense for owners of vehicles with multiple tickets to be required to go to traffic school or some such. Or maybe escalating tickets
Many of DC's speed zones are also unreasonable, IMO, or not clearly marked
I got a ticket for traveling at 37 in a 25mph zone, but the speed limit sign was covered by trees

That's not at all what double jeopardy is. And by the way, the "speed limit sign was covered by trees" argument doesn't play well, I get it if it's a stop sign, but speed limit signs are posted multiple times and are available on maps. Just because you didn't look at one of the probably multiple signs doesn't excuse your speed. And if you really thought it did, you could have fought the ticket.

Hmmmm: https://wtop.com/dc/2022/12/md-man-fought-his-100-dc-speeding-ticket-now-its-easier-for-others-to-challenge-theirs/

What a dogshit ruling. Really? There are like a handful of roads in all of DC that have signed speed limits above 25 mph. If you turn on a road and the speed limit sign was before the turn and you drive 40 mph down the road and turn again before the next speed limit sign, did you not break the law? Dogshit!

You have to post a speed limit. There are a lot of drivers from other states in DC. What’s the point of putting a sign up if no one can see it. DC has planted trees everywhere but the city does not have a tree maintenance plan- pruning, etc. Also the city could put up a speed limit sign facing the wrong way and issue tickets.

Drivers have an obligation to be aware of local traffic laws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The proposed legislation unsurprisingly ignores on multiple levels the explicit representation made to gain support for guilt by machine without meaningful due process that camera tickets would not have points attached to them, would not impact insurance, etc.

In the slow-boiled frog legislative world this is hardly surprising but that doesn’t mean it isn’t outrageous. Under the current regime the ticket alone is prima facie evidence of guilt as long as the “inspection” form for the camera says it was in good working order. This presumes no maintenance person ever made a mistake or (heaven forfend) simply lied on the form. Despite the obvious extortionate purpose of the program and the near complete lack of due process, it was upheld because each individual violation penalty is relatively modest, flagrantly ignoring the enormous amount of revenue DC uses its cameras to obtain. If this legislation passes that calculus may well change.

The obvious purpose of the program is to deter dangerous driving. If you're a dangerous driver, you might view that as extortion.

Guilt by machine has nothing to do with safety, as the frequent rear end collisions at camera monitored intersections demonstrates. Cameras are in high traffic areas, particularly ones used by commuters. Plenty of speeding, recklessness, red light and stop sign running lots of other places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC should offer a discount on registration for low-income and offer to pay some of the insurance for them if they have no unpaid tickets. Give a 3-month grace period for people to come current, then impound the hell out of cars with fake/illegal tags (there's a guy who parks in my neighborhood with virginia "farm use" tags) and ones with unpaid tickets.

The folks who say "well you're just as bad a driver if you get a lot of tickets and pay them"--show me that there is any car that gets at least 10 tickets a year and is not currently tow-eligible and then we can talk about that. I am not sure there really are people who get that many tickets and pay them. If there are, there could be different solutions depending on who they are--like are they a home health aide or construction worker or delivery person who can't find legal parking? Are they someone who speeds and runs red lights every day? The deterrents would be different for each. But we don't have to think much about the deterrents unless these cars actually exist. If they don't, and the worst drivers are in fact the ones with lots of unpaid tickets, increasing towing is a good solution. And hiring more tow crews is a good way to increase employment in DC.

I think it's highly likely that there are drivers who regularly receive speed camera tickets and pay them. I know several people who got multiple tickets from the same camera (not in DC), because they said they kept forgetting...

I think this would be very interesting data to make public. I could imagine a group of people who pay off 3-5 speeding tickets a year. Maybe even 10. But there's a car in my neighborhood right now with over 30 unpaid tickets. Are there people paying 30 tickets a year, or are the people who rack up 30 tickets the people who don't care because they're never going to pay them? The public, and the Council, don't really know.

The problem is that most people with multiple tickets have cars registered in MD and VA. DC has no way to go after those drivers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The proposed legislation unsurprisingly ignores on multiple levels the explicit representation made to gain support for guilt by machine without meaningful due process that camera tickets would not have points attached to them, would not impact insurance, etc.

In the slow-boiled frog legislative world this is hardly surprising but that doesn’t mean it isn’t outrageous. Under the current regime the ticket alone is prima facie evidence of guilt as long as the “inspection” form for the camera says it was in good working order. This presumes no maintenance person ever made a mistake or (heaven forfend) simply lied on the form. Despite the obvious extortionate purpose of the program and the near complete lack of due process, it was upheld because each individual violation penalty is relatively modest, flagrantly ignoring the enormous amount of revenue DC uses its cameras to obtain. If this legislation passes that calculus may well change.

The obvious purpose of the program is to deter dangerous driving. If you're a dangerous driver, you might view that as extortion.

Guilt by machine has nothing to do with safety, as the frequent rear end collisions at camera monitored intersections demonstrates. Cameras are in high traffic areas, particularly ones used by commuters. Plenty of speeding, recklessness, red light and stop sign running lots of other places.

I fully support having speed cameras, red light cameras, and stop sign cameras all over the place. Do you?

"Guilt by machine" is just another way of saying guilt. Stop driving dangerously, then you won't get any camera citations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Bike lanes aren’t evil, but the closeted racist bike zealots are. Trying to drive black people out of the city by impounding their cars for driving 24 mph and putting up bike lanes in front of historic black churches to make it more difficult for black elders to park in front of their places of worship is a a very slick slight of hand. But we see through it.

Nobody said you had to like it. Sick and tired of the city catering to people who don't live here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe DC is starting to take it seriously.

https://dcist.com/story/23/07/10/series-of-d-c-council-bills-aim-to-get-dangerous-drivers-off-the-roads-faster/

This is the turning point where privileged white councilmembers like Charles Allen take the mask off. He is proposing taking away people’s cars, in a city where this will disproportionately affect poor black people, without trial in the name of equity for going 1-10 miles above the speed limit for more than 8 times in a couple of months?!!! So if someone drives 23 mph on a 20 mph street and gets caught 8 times you’re going to steal their car?!!! You cannot make this up.

I guess stealing people’s cars without trial is okay but letting criminals out without bond to commit more crimes, against mostly working class black people, is okay? Yeah…okay.

These haughty, unseasoned bike lane advocates are revealing their true selves.

So nice to see you again, everything-is-racism troll.

That's not the everything-is-racism troll, that's the everything-is-about-the-evils-of-bike-lanes word-salad troll.

Bike lanes aren’t evil, but the closeted racist bike zealots are. Trying to drive black people out of the city by impounding their cars for driving 24 mph and putting up bike lanes in front of historic black churches to make it more difficult for black elders to park in front of their places of worship is a a very slick slight of hand. But we see through it.

Speaking on behalf of no bike commuters except myself, I was glad the city was able to work out a compromise on M Street with the bike lane, and I don't want any cars impounded.

However, there are no churches, historically black or otherwise, on, say, Connecticut Avenue, where the current bike lane fight is. (There's a synagogue, where I'm a member, nearby, but the bike lanes won't affect parking because it has a parking lot that's primarily reserved for elderly members anyway. And at any rate, marginally inconveniencing Jews probably will not drive many black people out of D.C.) And I don't think speed limits are racist; in fact, most traffic fatalities recently have been in Wards 7 and 8, so enforcing speed laws will probably do more to protect black Washingtonians than white ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Proposing booting cars with speeding tickets.
Isn't this sort of double jeopardy? Paid your fine but still face extra sanctions?
I could see someone deciding not to pay speeding tickets if they're still at risk for being towed.
IMO it would make more sense for owners of vehicles with multiple tickets to be required to go to traffic school or some such. Or maybe escalating tickets
Many of DC's speed zones are also unreasonable, IMO, or not clearly marked
I got a ticket for traveling at 37 in a 25mph zone, but the speed limit sign was covered by trees

The speed limit in DC is 20 MPH unless otherwise marked so just don't drive above 20MPH and you will be fine

+100

After getting a ticket I now drive 18-20 mph everywhere I go in DC and have yet to get another ticket since. Boom. Problem solved. It’s like being in a stealth bomber. You’re invisible to radar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC should offer a discount on registration for low-income and offer to pay some of the insurance for them if they have no unpaid tickets. Give a 3-month grace period for people to come current, then impound the hell out of cars with fake/illegal tags (there's a guy who parks in my neighborhood with virginia "farm use" tags) and ones with unpaid tickets.

The folks who say "well you're just as bad a driver if you get a lot of tickets and pay them"--show me that there is any car that gets at least 10 tickets a year and is not currently tow-eligible and then we can talk about that. I am not sure there really are people who get that many tickets and pay them. If there are, there could be different solutions depending on who they are--like are they a home health aide or construction worker or delivery person who can't find legal parking? Are they someone who speeds and runs red lights every day? The deterrents would be different for each. But we don't have to think much about the deterrents unless these cars actually exist. If they don't, and the worst drivers are in fact the ones with lots of unpaid tickets, increasing towing is a good solution. And hiring more tow crews is a good way to increase employment in DC.

I think it's highly likely that there are drivers who regularly receive speed camera tickets and pay them. I know several people who got multiple tickets from the same camera (not in DC), because they said they kept forgetting...

I think this would be very interesting data to make public. I could imagine a group of people who pay off 3-5 speeding tickets a year. Maybe even 10. But there's a car in my neighborhood right now with over 30 unpaid tickets. Are there people paying 30 tickets a year, or are the people who rack up 30 tickets the people who don't care because they're never going to pay them? The public, and the Council, don't really know.

The problem is that most people with multiple tickets have cars registered in MD and VA. DC has no way to go after those drivers.

The city is going to file lawsuits against out of state drivers to recover the funds owed.