Diversity, “Opportunity” and Inclusion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Merit.

Merit should be the focus. DEI is nothing but divisive and a waste of time.

Define “merit.” Lots of things have merit that you probably don’t consider worthwhile.

Hint: It isn’t test scores.

Test scores are one aspect of merit. It also includes tenacity. The willingness to work hard, even if you fail. The ability to demonstrate understanding, knowledge and skills. The willingness to try new things. Showing up. Going above and beyond... not just doing enough to get by. The ability to work with people. The ability to accept criticism and grow by learning.
These are just off the top of my head.

[Anonymous]

Stop using the term “systemic racism.” The correct term is “systemic white racism.”

BIPOC are not capable of racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Merit.

Merit should be the focus. DEI is nothing but divisive and a waste of time.

Define “merit.” Lots of things have merit that you probably don’t consider worthwhile.

Hint: It isn’t test scores.

Test scores are one aspect of merit. It also includes tenacity. The willingness to work hard, even if you fail. The ability to demonstrate understanding, knowledge and skills. The willingness to try new things. Showing up. Going above and beyond... not just doing enough to get by. The ability to work with people. The ability to accept criticism and grow by learning.
These are just off the top of my head.

Test scores might be an outcome *for some people* who display those characteristics. The rest of your list is similarly subjective and describes behaviors that might be valued by one group (especially one that values a hierarchy) but not necessarily another. For example, going above and beyond? You might value that. Others see it as an inefficiency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clever, but it’s dismissive of the very real problems of inequities built into the system.

I realize white people (it’s white men who came up with this) are tired of all this race talk, already, but systemic racism is a genuine problem. This is another example of thinking it’s OK to be born on third base and think you hit a triple.

FYI. Most white people were not born in third base.

Perhaps, but how do you explain the persistent wealth gap between Blacks and Whites in the US? "The net wealth of a typical Black family in America is around one-tenth that of a white family. A 2018 analysis of U.S. incomes and wealth concluded, “The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years.”

Because they were poor, their children stayed poor It is not like they were once equal and dropped down. We need to help all the poor. . It is the same with whites in Appalacia. They have a small fraction of the wealth of the people in the north east. While we systematically keep all the poor down, they will turn into essentially a modern slave class.

The reason they were poor was because of a horrific practice in the former colonies and then the United States called “slavery”. They didn’t just happen to be poor through no external intervention. Having never been equal in the first place, never been allowed to benefit from generational wealth until the last 160 years— yes even the family farm in Appalachia is generational wealth— it is reasonable to create addition opportunities.

Not to mention being defined as 3/5 a person in the constitution

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop using the term “systemic racism.” The correct term is “systemic white racism.”

BIPOC are not capable of racism.

Your definition of racism only focuses on power structure, not hate based on racism - which is also racism. BIPOC racism does indeed exist and does happen, all the time, in the form of slurs, violence and other things. Just because they don't have as much power to keep others down in American society does not mean BIPOC "are not capable of racism" as if there were some kind of non-racist purity there.

If you wanted to say BIPOC are not capable of systemic white racism, you'd be completely correct. But to say BIPOC are not capable of other forms of racism is absolutely incorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Merit.

Merit should be the focus. DEI is nothing but divisive and a waste of time.

Define “merit.” Lots of things have merit that you probably don’t consider worthwhile.

Hint: It isn’t test scores.

Test scores are intended to be a measure of proficiency, not of merit.

But it turns out to be a measure of merit, as well - because a test can for example measure your level of literacy - as can a job application. If you aren't literate enough to fill out a job application, you're going to have problems and be very limited in your prospect in working life. If you lack skills in math, your options in STEM are very limited. And so on. Test scores aren't items of merit to hang on a wall, they are hurdles to clear toward getting you situated in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clever, but it’s dismissive of the very real problems of inequities built into the system.

I realize white people (it’s white men who came up with this) are tired of all this race talk, already, but systemic racism is a genuine problem. This is another example of thinking it’s OK to be born on third base and think you hit a triple.

FYI. Most white people were not born in third base.

Perhaps, but how do you explain the persistent wealth gap between Blacks and Whites in the US? "The net wealth of a typical Black family in America is around one-tenth that of a white family. A 2018 analysis of U.S. incomes and wealth concluded, “The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years.”

Because they were poor, their children stayed poor It is not like they were once equal and dropped down. We need to help all the poor. . It is the same with whites in Appalacia. They have a small fraction of the wealth of the people in the north east. While we systematically keep all the poor down, they will turn into essentially a modern slave class.

The reason they were poor was because of a horrific practice in the former colonies and then the United States called “slavery”. They didn’t just happen to be poor through no external intervention. Having never been equal in the first place, never been allowed to benefit from generational wealth until the last 160 years— yes even the family farm in Appalachia is generational wealth— it is reasonable to create addition opportunities.

There were also hundreds of thousands who came to America through Ellis Island as penniless immigrants in the 1890s-1920s. And, there were many families who lost everything they had during the Great Depression and other events. It's rather presumptuous, perhaps even delusional, to go through life assuming every white American grew up in comfort and stability, and had vast generational riches handed to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Merit.

Merit should be the focus. DEI is nothing but divisive and a waste of time.

Define “merit.” Lots of things have merit that you probably don’t consider worthwhile.

Hint: It isn’t test scores.

Test scores are one aspect of merit. It also includes tenacity. The willingness to work hard, even if you fail. The ability to demonstrate understanding, knowledge and skills. The willingness to try new things. Showing up. Going above and beyond... not just doing enough to get by. The ability to work with people. The ability to accept criticism and grow by learning.
These are just off the top of my head.

Test scores might be an outcome *for some people* who display those characteristics. The rest of your list is similarly subjective and describes behaviors that might be valued by one group (especially one that values a hierarchy) but not necessarily another. For example, going above and beyond? You might value that. Others see it as an inefficiency.

Nearly all the things I listed can certainly be measured. Not always by tests, but by performance. And, I believe that any employer would want an employee with the qualities listed regardless of skin color or gender.
Of course if one is looking *solely* at skin color or gender for diversity's sake, you can toss this list out the window and go with the candidate who has the darker skin or the right body parts. And, if some measurable criteria of merit is not included as part of a hiring practice, the business will suffer as a result.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How should equity be defined? Equal results? Equal opportunity? Equal resources?

Agree 100%. The issue with the word equity is its vagueness and certainly includes equal outcomes. Equal opportunity is the best phrase in my mind.

DP. Completely agree. How can anyone argue with "equal opportunity"? Oh, but they will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clever, but it’s dismissive of the very real problems of inequities built into the system.

I realize white people (it’s white men who came up with this) are tired of all this race talk, already, but systemic racism is a genuine problem. This is another example of thinking it’s OK to be born on third base and think you hit a triple.

FYI. Most white people were not born in third base.

Perhaps, but how do you explain the persistent wealth gap between Blacks and Whites in the US? "The net wealth of a typical Black family in America is around one-tenth that of a white family. A 2018 analysis of U.S. incomes and wealth concluded, “The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years.”

Because they were poor, their children stayed poor It is not like they were once equal and dropped down. We need to help all the poor. . It is the same with whites in Appalacia. They have a small fraction of the wealth of the people in the north east. While we systematically keep all the poor down, they will turn into essentially a modern slave class.

The reason they were poor was because of a horrific practice in the former colonies and then the United States called “slavery”. They didn’t just happen to be poor through no external intervention. Having never been equal in the first place, never been allowed to benefit from generational wealth until the last 160 years— yes even the family farm in Appalachia is generational wealth— it is reasonable to create addition opportunities.

There were also hundreds of thousands who came to America through Ellis Island as penniless immigrants in the 1890s-1920s. And, there were many families who lost everything they had during the Great Depression and other events. It's rather presumptuous, perhaps even delusional, to go through life assuming every white American grew up in comfort and stability, and had vast generational riches handed to them.

white americans weren't lynched, didn't lose the ability to vote, didn't face red-lining, didn't have opportunity stolen from them, etc.

not the same

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How should equity be defined? Equal results? Equal opportunity? Equal resources?

Agree 100%. The issue with the word equity is its vagueness and certainly includes equal outcomes. Equal opportunity is the best phrase in my mind.

DP. Completely agree. How can anyone argue with "equal opportunity"? Oh, but they will.

Because you want to argue semantics rather than engage in good faith on the problems, which you refuse to acknowledge exist because it makes you uncomfortable and threatens your sense of relative advantage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clever, but it’s dismissive of the very real problems of inequities built into the system.

I realize white people (it’s white men who came up with this) are tired of all this race talk, already, but systemic racism is a genuine problem. This is another example of thinking it’s OK to be born on third base and think you hit a triple.

FYI. Most white people were not born in third base.

Perhaps, but how do you explain the persistent wealth gap between Blacks and Whites in the US? "The net wealth of a typical Black family in America is around one-tenth that of a white family. A 2018 analysis of U.S. incomes and wealth concluded, “The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years.”

Because they were poor, their children stayed poor It is not like they were once equal and dropped down. We need to help all the poor. . It is the same with whites in Appalacia. They have a small fraction of the wealth of the people in the north east. While we systematically keep all the poor down, they will turn into essentially a modern slave class.

The reason they were poor was because of a horrific practice in the former colonies and then the United States called “slavery”. They didn’t just happen to be poor through no external intervention. Having never been equal in the first place, never been allowed to benefit from generational wealth until the last 160 years— yes even the family farm in Appalachia is generational wealth— it is reasonable to create addition opportunities.

There were also hundreds of thousands who came to America through Ellis Island as penniless immigrants in the 1890s-1920s. And, there were many families who lost everything they had during the Great Depression and other events. It's rather presumptuous, perhaps even delusional, to go through life assuming every white American grew up in comfort and stability, and had vast generational riches handed to them.

white americans weren't lynched, didn't lose the ability to vote, didn't face red-lining, didn't have opportunity stolen from them, etc.

not the same

White on white lynching existed. It was often used on rustlers and robbers and other people they didn’t like. White women couldn’t vote for a long time. About 85% of the victims of redlining were white people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clever, but it’s dismissive of the very real problems of inequities built into the system.

I realize white people (it’s white men who came up with this) are tired of all this race talk, already, but systemic racism is a genuine problem. This is another example of thinking it’s OK to be born on third base and think you hit a triple.

FYI. Most white people were not born in third base.

Perhaps, but how do you explain the persistent wealth gap between Blacks and Whites in the US? "The net wealth of a typical Black family in America is around one-tenth that of a white family. A 2018 analysis of U.S. incomes and wealth concluded, “The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years.”

Because they were poor, their children stayed poor It is not like they were once equal and dropped down. We need to help all the poor. . It is the same with whites in Appalacia. They have a small fraction of the wealth of the people in the north east. While we systematically keep all the poor down, they will turn into essentially a modern slave class.

The reason they were poor was because of a horrific practice in the former colonies and then the United States called “slavery”. They didn’t just happen to be poor through no external intervention. Having never been equal in the first place, never been allowed to benefit from generational wealth until the last 160 years— yes even the family farm in Appalachia is generational wealth— it is reasonable to create addition opportunities.

There were also hundreds of thousands who came to America through Ellis Island as penniless immigrants in the 1890s-1920s. And, there were many families who lost everything they had during the Great Depression and other events. It's rather presumptuous, perhaps even delusional, to go through life assuming every white American grew up in comfort and stability, and had vast generational riches handed to them.

white americans weren't lynched, didn't lose the ability to vote, didn't face red-lining, didn't have opportunity stolen from them, etc.

not the same

White americans were lynched. According to the Tuskeegee institute, whites made up about 27% of all lynchings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20Tuskegee%20Institute%20has%20recorded,increasing%20political%20suppression%20of%20blacks.

[Anonymous]

White on white lynching existed.

I guess some people on here never watch old Westerns. Many of them had lynchings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clever, but it’s dismissive of the very real problems of inequities built into the system.

I realize white people (it’s white men who came up with this) are tired of all this race talk, already, but systemic racism is a genuine problem. This is another example of thinking it’s OK to be born on third base and think you hit a triple.

FYI. Most white people were not born in third base.

Perhaps, but how do you explain the persistent wealth gap between Blacks and Whites in the US? "The net wealth of a typical Black family in America is around one-tenth that of a white family. A 2018 analysis of U.S. incomes and wealth concluded, “The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years.”

Because they were poor, their children stayed poor It is not like they were once equal and dropped down. We need to help all the poor. . It is the same with whites in Appalacia. They have a small fraction of the wealth of the people in the north east. While we systematically keep all the poor down, they will turn into essentially a modern slave class.

The reason they were poor was because of a horrific practice in the former colonies and then the United States called “slavery”. They didn’t just happen to be poor through no external intervention. Having never been equal in the first place, never been allowed to benefit from generational wealth until the last 160 years— yes even the family farm in Appalachia is generational wealth— it is reasonable to create addition opportunities.

There were also hundreds of thousands who came to America through Ellis Island as penniless immigrants in the 1890s-1920s. And, there were many families who lost everything they had during the Great Depression and other events. It's rather presumptuous, perhaps even delusional, to go through life assuming every white American grew up in comfort and stability, and had vast generational riches handed to them.

white americans weren't lynched, didn't lose the ability to vote, didn't face red-lining, didn't have opportunity stolen from them, etc.

not the same

Because you see everything through a selected identity you are truly blind.