Advanced middle school math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is in fifth grade and in Advanced Math in FCPS. He has been going to RSM for enrichment since third grade. We had a chance to listen to the math classes and realized that he was not going to be challenged in math. We asked if he wanted to take an extra class that would challenge him and he said yes. He has continue with the class since then. He also participates in a math competition class and enjoys math competitions.

We have not talked to his school about advancing him in math at school. We remind him that the work at school is important foundational work and that the extra practice is good for him because it will help him remember proper steps and procedures. He will need to be fluent and fast with these skills as he gets older so the extra practice is good for him.

He is one of the youngest kids in his grade level right now. We don't think that it is a good idea to try and advance him faster for social reasons. I don't think that he needs to be taking Algebra in 6th grade so badly that he ends up in a virtual class or trying to work out going to the MS for a class in the morning and then returning to his ES. The acceleration is not worth his getting up an hour earlier to go to a different school to take a class.

Here's the long and short of it. If your child takes Algebra in 7th, some doors are being closed to him. But, they may already have been closed. If he has the natural aptitude to qualify for National Mathcounts, he would be at a huge disadvantage if he were taking Algebra in 7th or even 6th. But, only the top 4 kids in each state qualify. Unless your kid is one of those very top kids, Algebra timing is irrelevant. FWIW, my kid did participate in Mathcounts nationals, and he also took Algebra I in 4th grade. That is not at all atypical for kids at that level.

Likewise, it would be nearly impossible for a kid to progress through the USAJMO/AMO -> MOP -> IMO chain without being highly accelerated. They simply wouldn't know enough math compared to the kids who are accelerated. This would only potentially affect the top 50 or so kids in each grade level across the entire country.

If your kid isn't a complete outlier, the only benefit to taking Algebra earlier is moderately better placement in math contests at somewhat earlier ages. It won't ultimately matter that much for anything else.

I appreciate your response. I am less concerned that doors to advanced math competitions are closed to him in future years and more concerned about balancing his interest and ability in math with his social well being and making sure that he does not burn out academically. I think my child is bright and he really loves math. He is ahead and I have no clue if he could handle Algebra in fifth grade. We can have him move ahead at RSM, if we think he needs it, and stay with his class in school. That is what ended up happening last year. He moved from the fourth grade group to the fifth grade group at RSM.

He will have lots of time in college and potentially grad school to take more advanced math. Right now, he likes playing sports and math and Scouts. We like that he has time to have sleep overs with his friends and hang out with them after school. He has a reasonably busy schedule that is balanced between academic and rec activities. He is happy with that. He asks to do the extra math and we sign him up for it. I am comfortable that 4 hours of extra math class plus 2 hours of homework is more then enough. I know he can do more, he could do more with soccer or basketball as well, we just don't feel like he needs to do more. He is ahead and he has the ability to move further ahead, we are comfortable with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is in fifth grade and in Advanced Math in FCPS. He has been going to RSM for enrichment since third grade. We had a chance to listen to the math classes and realized that he was not going to be challenged in math. We asked if he wanted to take an extra class that would challenge him and he said yes. He has continue with the class since then. He also participates in a math competition class and enjoys math competitions.

We have not talked to his school about advancing him in math at school. We remind him that the work at school is important foundational work and that the extra practice is good for him because it will help him remember proper steps and procedures. He will need to be fluent and fast with these skills as he gets older so the extra practice is good for him.

He is one of the youngest kids in his grade level right now. We don't think that it is a good idea to try and advance him faster for social reasons. I don't think that he needs to be taking Algebra in 6th grade so badly that he ends up in a virtual class or trying to work out going to the MS for a class in the morning and then returning to his ES. The acceleration is not worth his getting up an hour earlier to go to a different school to take a class.

Here's the long and short of it. If your child takes Algebra in 7th, some doors are being closed to him. But, they may already have been closed. If he has the natural aptitude to qualify for National Mathcounts, he would be at a huge disadvantage if he were taking Algebra in 7th or even 6th. But, only the top 4 kids in each state qualify. Unless your kid is one of those very top kids, Algebra timing is irrelevant. FWIW, my kid did participate in Mathcounts nationals, and he also took Algebra I in 4th grade. That is not at all atypical for kids at that level.

Likewise, it would be nearly impossible for a kid to progress through the USAJMO/AMO -> MOP -> IMO chain without being highly accelerated. They simply wouldn't know enough math compared to the kids who are accelerated. This would only potentially affect the top 50 or so kids in each grade level across the entire country.

If your kid isn't a complete outlier, the only benefit to taking Algebra earlier is moderately better placement in math contests at somewhat earlier ages. It won't ultimately matter that much for anything else.

Trying to understand...

OP here. So the only benefit for putting a 6th grader in algebra I would be that they could compete in math competitions? While they sound fun, that wouldn’t be our ultimate goal. I’m just trying to get the appropriate level class based on his ability. His school is 6-8th grade. The “in house” honors class for 8th grade is Algebra I, so he could potentially take it since he is in the same building. But to my knowledge, no 6th graders do this and I think the counselors will not be agreeable to it. When he is in 7-8th grade he will have access to other programs in the district (but outside of his school) that are even more accelerated, but they don’t offer those to the 6th graders.

How happy or unhappy is he in a class that's too easy for him? If he's unhappy and starting to dislike math, then it might be valuable to push him ahead. If he's content enough in the easy class, but capable of more, pushing him ahead won't be worth the logistical hassle. It would be much simpler to have him supplement through AoPS or RSM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is in fifth grade and in Advanced Math in FCPS. He has been going to RSM for enrichment since third grade. We had a chance to listen to the math classes and realized that he was not going to be challenged in math. We asked if he wanted to take an extra class that would challenge him and he said yes. He has continue with the class since then. He also participates in a math competition class and enjoys math competitions.

We have not talked to his school about advancing him in math at school. We remind him that the work at school is important foundational work and that the extra practice is good for him because it will help him remember proper steps and procedures. He will need to be fluent and fast with these skills as he gets older so the extra practice is good for him.

He is one of the youngest kids in his grade level right now. We don't think that it is a good idea to try and advance him faster for social reasons. I don't think that he needs to be taking Algebra in 6th grade so badly that he ends up in a virtual class or trying to work out going to the MS for a class in the morning and then returning to his ES. The acceleration is not worth his getting up an hour earlier to go to a different school to take a class.

Here's the long and short of it. If your child takes Algebra in 7th, some doors are being closed to him. But, they may already have been closed. If he has the natural aptitude to qualify for National Mathcounts, he would be at a huge disadvantage if he were taking Algebra in 7th or even 6th. But, only the top 4 kids in each state qualify. Unless your kid is one of those very top kids, Algebra timing is irrelevant. FWIW, my kid did participate in Mathcounts nationals, and he also took Algebra I in 4th grade. That is not at all atypical for kids at that level.

Likewise, it would be nearly impossible for a kid to progress through the USAJMO/AMO -> MOP -> IMO chain without being highly accelerated. They simply wouldn't know enough math compared to the kids who are accelerated. This would only potentially affect the top 50 or so kids in each grade level across the entire country.

If your kid isn't a complete outlier, the only benefit to taking Algebra earlier is moderately better placement in math contests at somewhat earlier ages. It won't ultimately matter that much for anything else.

I appreciate your response. I am less concerned that doors to advanced math competitions are closed to him in future years and more concerned about balancing his interest and ability in math with his social well being and making sure that he does not burn out academically. I think my child is bright and he really loves math. He is ahead and I have no clue if he could handle Algebra in fifth grade. We can have him move ahead at RSM, if we think he needs it, and stay with his class in school. That is what ended up happening last year. He moved from the fourth grade group to the fifth grade group at RSM.

He will have lots of time in college and potentially grad school to take more advanced math. Right now, he likes playing sports and math and Scouts. We like that he has time to have sleep overs with his friends and hang out with them after school. He has a reasonably busy schedule that is balanced between academic and rec activities. He is happy with that. He asks to do the extra math and we sign him up for it. I am comfortable that 4 hours of extra math class plus 2 hours of homework is more then enough. I know he can do more, he could do more with soccer or basketball as well, we just don't feel like he needs to do more. He is ahead and he has the ability to move further ahead, we are comfortable with that.

I don't know whether this helps cement your position, but I should also add that FCPS does not facilitate the logistical problems with having a kid skipped ahead. At the ES level, the math classes won't match up and your kid would likely be pulled out of some other class to attend math with the higher grade level. When they reach middle school level, you would either need to transport them to the MS and then back to the ES, or you'd need to have your child take the online class. In middle school, when your kid has exhausted the offerings there, he would again either need to be transported to the high school at the end of the day for math or he'd need to take the class online.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know what the benchmark is for accepting a younger child into algebra I? Is there a particular NWEA-MAP score you need to have? A separate algebra readiness test?

[Anonymous]

All of you need to chill

If your child is truly the top .01% then you need to have a talk with your admin about skipping multiple grades and going to college early

For everyone else taking Algebra in 7th is enough period.

And for the love quit taking your kids to afterschool places to advance faster. There is 0 point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what the benchmark is for accepting a younger child into algebra I? Is there a particular NWEA-MAP score you need to have? A separate algebra readiness test?

In FCPS, there are two paths. The first is to be skipped ahead in the earlier grades (1st-3rd). This may happen if your child's teacher pushes for you, you push for it, and your child has the test scores to back it up. At least for my kid, my child was tested pretty thoroughly by the math resource teacher at the school before being skipped. This path also requires a principal willing to do the skip and the central office giving the go ahead. They will not skip a child into Algebra I. Your child would still have to take 6th grade AAP math and meet the IAAT and SOL benchmarks, just at a younger grade.

The other path is the more common one. At the beginning of 5th grade, kids who scored a 145+ on the CogAT Q and a 575+ on the 4th grade SOL will be invited to take another test. If they pass, they will join the 6th grade AAP class as 5th graders. They still need to meet IAAT and SOL benchmarks to progress to Algebra I in 6th. This path also relies on having a principal willing to implement it.

FCPS will not skip a child into Algebra. They will refuse to test your child for placement, no matter what evidence you bring forth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All of you need to chill

If your child is truly the top .01% then you need to have a talk with your admin about skipping multiple grades and going to college early

For everyone else taking Algebra in 7th is enough period.

And for the love quit taking your kids to afterschool places to advance faster. There is 0 point.

It's awesome that you're such an expert on the best path for every single child in this country. Please share more of your wisdom with everyone!

My kid is a 99.99th+ percentile type in math, maybe 90th percentile in language arts, and on the immature side. Of course the best solution is to either do nothing at all with the math or it's to shove him into college as a 14 year old. No middle ground!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is in fifth grade and in Advanced Math in FCPS. He has been going to RSM for enrichment since third grade. We had a chance to listen to the math classes and realized that he was not going to be challenged in math. We asked if he wanted to take an extra class that would challenge him and he said yes. He has continue with the class since then. He also participates in a math competition class and enjoys math competitions.

We have not talked to his school about advancing him in math at school. We remind him that the work at school is important foundational work and that the extra practice is good for him because it will help him remember proper steps and procedures. He will need to be fluent and fast with these skills as he gets older so the extra practice is good for him.

He is one of the youngest kids in his grade level right now. We don't think that it is a good idea to try and advance him faster for social reasons. I don't think that he needs to be taking Algebra in 6th grade so badly that he ends up in a virtual class or trying to work out going to the MS for a class in the morning and then returning to his ES. The acceleration is not worth his getting up an hour earlier to go to a different school to take a class.

Here's the long and short of it. If your child takes Algebra in 7th, some doors are being closed to him. But, they may already have been closed. If he has the natural aptitude to qualify for National Mathcounts, he would be at a huge disadvantage if he were taking Algebra in 7th or even 6th. But, only the top 4 kids in each state qualify. Unless your kid is one of those very top kids, Algebra timing is irrelevant. FWIW, my kid did participate in Mathcounts nationals, and he also took Algebra I in 4th grade. That is not at all atypical for kids at that level.

Likewise, it would be nearly impossible for a kid to progress through the USAJMO/AMO -> MOP -> IMO chain without being highly accelerated. They simply wouldn't know enough math compared to the kids who are accelerated. This would only potentially affect the top 50 or so kids in each grade level across the entire country.

If your kid isn't a complete outlier, the only benefit to taking Algebra earlier is moderately better placement in math contests at somewhat earlier ages. It won't ultimately matter that much for anything else.

I appreciate your response. I am less concerned that doors to advanced math competitions are closed to him in future years and more concerned about balancing his interest and ability in math with his social well being and making sure that he does not burn out academically. I think my child is bright and he really loves math. He is ahead and I have no clue if he could handle Algebra in fifth grade. We can have him move ahead at RSM, if we think he needs it, and stay with his class in school. That is what ended up happening last year. He moved from the fourth grade group to the fifth grade group at RSM.

He will have lots of time in college and potentially grad school to take more advanced math. Right now, he likes playing sports and math and Scouts. We like that he has time to have sleep overs with his friends and hang out with them after school. He has a reasonably busy schedule that is balanced between academic and rec activities. He is happy with that. He asks to do the extra math and we sign him up for it. I am comfortable that 4 hours of extra math class plus 2 hours of homework is more then enough. I know he can do more, he could do more with soccer or basketball as well, we just don't feel like he needs to do more. He is ahead and he has the ability to move further ahead, we are comfortable with that.

I don't know whether this helps cement your position, but I should also add that FCPS does not facilitate the logistical problems with having a kid skipped ahead. At the ES level, the math classes won't match up and your kid would likely be pulled out of some other class to attend math with the higher grade level. When they reach middle school level, you would either need to transport them to the MS and then back to the ES, or you'd need to have your child take the online class. In middle school, when your kid has exhausted the offerings there, he would again either need to be transported to the high school at the end of the day for math or he'd need to take the class online.

I talked briefly to the AART about this in second grade because DS was noticeable ahead in math and every Teacher he had (K-2) commented on it. It was very clear that our school is not one that is willing to work with a parent to advance a kid in math. When we mentioned it, the response was a look of confusion and then the comment was that most of the kids in Advanced Math at the school end up doing Math 7 H. The school clearly did not have a plan for kids who were ahead in math. I think they count on those kids to move to the Center for AAP. It is one that feeds into Carson and has a good number of kids who end up attending TJ. DS participated in our discussion regarding Center vs Base and wanted to stay at the base. We are fine with his taking Algebra in 7th. RSM works well for getting him the challenge that he needs and has been flexible with moving him ahead if they agree with us that he can handle it.

[Anonymous]

The race to nowhere

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The race to nowhere

It is not a race, it is trying to engage your child at a level that challenges them. Do you feel the same about travel sports? DS loves math and is good at it. The math taught at his school is not challenging for him. He needs more then what the school can provide. I can let him be bored and lose interest in math because the work isn't challenging or I can find ways to engge his interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The race to nowhere

It is not a race, it is trying to engage your child at a level that challenges them. Do you feel the same about travel sports? DS loves math and is good at it. The math taught at his school is not challenging for him. He needs more then what the school can provide. I can let him be bored and lose interest in math because the work isn't challenging or I can find ways to engge his interest.

Work on breath: music, chess, strategy games, art, science, another language. Many of these kids also struggle with social situations, so find a way to encourage social and team skills. He can do advanced math too, but it's not the end all be all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The race to nowhere

It is not a race, it is trying to engage your child at a level that challenges them. Do you feel the same about travel sports? DS loves math and is good at it. The math taught at his school is not challenging for him. He needs more then what the school can provide. I can let him be bored and lose interest in math because the work isn't challenging or I can find ways to engge his interest.

Work on breath: music, chess, strategy games, art, science, another language. Many of these kids also struggle with social situations, so find a way to encourage social and team skills. He can do advanced math too, but it's not the end all be all.

*breadth. Darn autocorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The race to nowhere

It is not a race, it is trying to engage your child at a level that challenges them. Do you feel the same about travel sports? DS loves math and is good at it. The math taught at his school is not challenging for him. He needs more then what the school can provide. I can let him be bored and lose interest in math because the work isn't challenging or I can find ways to engge his interest.

Work on breath: music, chess, strategy games, art, science, another language. Many of these kids also struggle with social situations, so find a way to encourage social and team skills. He can do advanced math too, but it's not the end all be all.

Generally, these kids already are. Do you really think that there are tons of parents out there pushing their kids only in math and not having them participate in any other activities? My kid does supplemental math. He also does a sport, plays an instrument, is learning a language, enjoys strategy games and so on. This is typical for many math high achievers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The race to nowhere

It is not a race, it is trying to engage your child at a level that challenges them. Do you feel the same about travel sports? DS loves math and is good at it. The math taught at his school is not challenging for him. He needs more then what the school can provide. I can let him be bored and lose interest in math because the work isn't challenging or I can find ways to engge his interest.

Work on breath: music, chess, strategy games, art, science, another language. Many of these kids also struggle with social situations, so find a way to encourage social and team skills. He can do advanced math too, but it's not the end all be all.

Generally, these kids already are. Do you really think that there are tons of parents out there pushing their kids only in math and not having them participate in any other activities? My kid does supplemental math. He also does a sport, plays an instrument, is learning a language, enjoys strategy games and so on. This is typical for many math high achievers.

Yeah, so is mine. I am just not so concerned with pushing even further ahead in math because she's challenged in other areas of her life. Supplemental math keeps her interested. School math is a review. We aren't in a race. If your kid is bored, find something else interesting for them to try.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The race to nowhere

It is not a race, it is trying to engage your child at a level that challenges them. Do you feel the same about travel sports? DS loves math and is good at it. The math taught at his school is not challenging for him. He needs more then what the school can provide. I can let him be bored and lose interest in math because the work isn't challenging or I can find ways to engge his interest.

Work on breath: music, chess, strategy games, art, science, another language. Many of these kids also struggle with social situations, so find a way to encourage social and team skills. He can do advanced math too, but it's not the end all be all.

Generally, these kids already are. Do you really think that there are tons of parents out there pushing their kids only in math and not having them participate in any other activities? My kid does supplemental math. He also does a sport, plays an instrument, is learning a language, enjoys strategy games and so on. This is typical for many math high achievers.

There's a kid up thread who does math, rec sports and scouts. Adding an instrument or language would push his brain to add another skill. It's not a crazy suggestion.