Are elite schools for excellent sheep?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “we were all happy happy happy it’s the best it’s perfect how dare you imply someone might not be happy at HYS” posters freaking out in this thread are quite something to watch.

I'm guessing you're not an HYPS alum? What axe do you have to grind against these schools? Sorry your rejection letter from high school still hurts to this day.

I am an alum. No axe to grind, just bemused by the bizarrely panicked posts from people criticizing OP. It is not a great advertisement for HYPS that so many of you can’t handle mild criticism of the schools.

LOL. Yeah, sure you're an HYPS alum :D

NP altogether. Double Harvard (law too). Best years of my life. And I'm very happy how my life turned out (I'm up there in years). Yes, there were a lot of "pointy" kids at Harvard undergrad and at the law school but wouldn't you expect that? And there were certainly some that didn't like their undergrad experience, especially those who were bitter about not getting into Harvard Law, so went abroad for a few years to LSE (this was before it was expected to take two years off between undergrad and grad for law school; i'm not talking about the business school) and then reapplied. Or those who kept applying but couldn't get in so went elsewhere. That was a very unhappy group. Yet, 1/3 of my HLS law class were H undergrads. I have no idea if that is true today. Anyhow, life is what you make of it. You an choose to apply yourself and get as much as you can out of an experience or you can just sit bak and complain. That's true if you have an IQ of 60 or 183.

I'm much more impressed with young folks attending Harvard and Harvard Law than those "up there in years." Back then it was much more about money and connections and social class than merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

The vast majority of people with college degrees do not "do what they love for a living" or pursue what "truly motivates them."

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with being a sheep. I bet the people complaining about "sheeple" students are wealthy white people who have trust funds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “we were all happy happy happy it’s the best it’s perfect how dare you imply someone might not be happy at HYS” posters freaking out in this thread are quite something to watch.

I'm guessing you're not an HYPS alum? What axe do you have to grind against these schools? Sorry your rejection letter from high school still hurts to this day.

DP. So your response is to dig the hole deeper?

[Anonymous]

Ok, I will be candid ( the whole point of anonymous forum). I don't like the way society is shaping out to be. Less folks going into teaching, non-profits, academics. That said, I have always told my kids to be money minded (and they are). Still in middle and high school, but I personally have seen that there are so many things I don't have to compromise on just because I can spend a bit to make the problem go away. I truly admire folks who don't need money to be happy, but unfortunately, in our South asian family and friends that is not the case. I wish we were wired the other way, and chose non-profit jobs and saving the world over travelling to Europe, nice restaurants and good tutors, EC for our kids. But we absolutely are not. Our kids have gotten used to the lifestyle and certainly need to be money minded if they want to continue with similar lifestyle. Whether that involves going to Ivy or not, I do not care. We are immigrants and remember the days when we were paying off our grad school loans and had to refuse invitations to weekend dinners because we had to make choices between saving and enjoying. That said, we do not live large for our income, save 30% of gross (plus a bit of company 401K match) and are not uber rich (~$3M NW at mid 40's) outside of DC area in tech.

Once we have enough to retire, who knows what that number will be, and if the kids turn out okay (not much help needed for downpayments, wedding etc). I do want to use my skills and contribute to the society in a more meaningful way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

Interesting. In my HYPS class, there were a lot of doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Not too many teachers, NPO workers, academics, or scientists. Lots went into consulting and finance as well. But then again, I graduated a couple years after '08, so I think my class was more financially-minded than earlier classes. It's probably only gotten worse.

The PP who said that it's not a good advertisement of HYPS that their alumni can't handle minor criticism of the schools is on point. I agree with the OP and with Deresiewicz, and I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

The vast majority of people with college degrees do not "do what they love for a living" or pursue what "truly motivates them."

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with being a sheep. I bet the people complaining about "sheeple" students are wealthy white people who have trust funds.

Agreed, I'd rather be a sheep, follow a path with higher probability of financial success than take risks that may or may not pan out. It reflects in my investing style, no bitcoins, or the next SPAC, boring vanguard index funds. More power to those who want to be more than an "excellent sheep"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: The Yale professor wants to sell his book. Telling readers that Ivies and other elite schools leads one to challenge himself/herself among a group of equally intelligent and motivated peers is not going to sell books; sharing that attending and graduating from the most elite schools opens up job and career opportunities in numbers far greater than for those attending and graduating from less competitive schools is common knowledge and is not going to help sell books.

OP: The fact that you chose a different path for you is fine, but what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone.

If you think that wealthy, successful people are not happy and fulfilled, try being poor and unsuccessful.

Exactly! It is always some white male ninny telling the rest of us that great schools do not matter. They have benefitted from white male privilege + usually went to one of these epite schools or are bitter because they were rejected.

[Anonymous]

"I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates."

I think what this poster noted is what the OP (and possibly the author) was trying to articulate, especially the internal motivation part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: The Yale professor wants to sell his book. Telling readers that Ivies and other elite schools leads one to challenge himself/herself among a group of equally intelligent and motivated peers is not going to sell books; sharing that attending and graduating from the most elite schools opens up job and career opportunities in numbers far greater than for those attending and graduating from less competitive schools is common knowledge and is not going to help sell books.

OP: The fact that you chose a different path for you is fine, but what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone.

If you think that wealthy, successful people are not happy and fulfilled, try being poor and unsuccessful.

Exactly! It is always some white male ninny telling the rest of us that great schools do not matter. They have benefitted from white male privilege + usually went to one of these epite schools or are bitter because they were rejected.

You have white male privilege but you got rejected from an elite school? LOL, ok. Guess white male privilege only takes you so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

The vast majority of people with college degrees do not "do what they love for a living" or pursue what "truly motivates them."

We must hang out in different circles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

The vast majority of people with college degrees do not "do what they love for a living" or pursue what "truly motivates them."

We must hang out in different circles.

Yeah, I don't really hang with trust funders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates."

I think what this poster noted is what the OP (and possibly the author) was trying to articulate, especially the internal motivation part.

Valid point. But is using "internal motivation" to drive your career really all that reasonable? That normally leads to tons of burnout, and you see that in the "caring" professions (teaching, academia, social work, NPO jobs). I'd rather my kids learn early on that all jobs are just jobs, and the main point of them is money and work-life balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I will be candid ( the whole point of anonymous forum). I don't like the way society is shaping out to be. Less folks going into teaching, non-profits, academics. That said, I have always told my kids to be money minded (and they are). Still in middle and high school, but I personally have seen that there are so many things I don't have to compromise on just because I can spend a bit to make the problem go away. I truly admire folks who don't need money to be happy, but unfortunately, in our South asian family and friends that is not the case. I wish we were wired the other way, and chose non-profit jobs and saving the world over travelling to Europe, nice restaurants and good tutors, EC for our kids. But we absolutely are not. Our kids have gotten used to the lifestyle and certainly need to be money minded if they want to continue with similar lifestyle. Whether that involves going to Ivy or not, I do not care. We are immigrants and remember the days when we were paying off our grad school loans and had to refuse invitations to weekend dinners because we had to make choices between saving and enjoying. That said, we do not live large for our income, save 30% of gross (plus a bit of company 401K match) and are not uber rich (~$3M NW at mid 40's) outside of DC area in tech.

Once we have enough to retire, who knows what that number will be, and if the kids turn out okay (not much help needed for downpayments, wedding etc). I do want to use my skills and contribute to the society in a more meaningful way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

Interesting. In my HYPS class, there were a lot of doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Not too many teachers, NPO workers, academics, or scientists. Lots went into consulting and finance as well. But then again, I graduated a couple years after '08, so I think my class was more financially-minded than earlier classes. It's probably only gotten worse.

The PP who said that it's not a good advertisement of HYPS that their alumni can't handle minor criticism of the schools is on point. I agree with the OP and with Deresiewicz, and I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates.

Hahaha. Okay. You realize $3 million is enough to retire on, right?

JFC, you people really are sheep. The rat race never ends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

The vast majority of people with college degrees do not "do what they love for a living" or pursue what "truly motivates them."

We must hang out in different circles.

Yeah, I don't really hang with trust funders.

Well, now you've outed yourself as a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates."

I think what this poster noted is what the OP (and possibly the author) was trying to articulate, especially the internal motivation part.

Valid point. But is using "internal motivation" to drive your career really all that reasonable? That normally leads to tons of burnout, and you see that in the "caring" professions (teaching, academia, social work, NPO jobs). I'd rather my kids learn early on that all jobs are just jobs, and the main point of them is money and work-life balance.

I would burnout fast in a job that felt like I was just doing it for money. I want to at least enjoy what I do.

I think you can find balance there, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “we were all happy happy happy it’s the best it’s perfect how dare you imply someone might not be happy at HYS” posters freaking out in this thread are quite something to watch.

I'm guessing you're not an HYPS alum? What axe do you have to grind against these schools? Sorry your rejection letter from high school still hurts to this day.

I am an alum. No axe to grind, just bemused by the bizarrely panicked posts from people criticizing OP. It is not a great advertisement for HYPS that so many of you can’t handle mild criticism of the schools.

LOL. Yeah, sure you're an HYPS alum :D

NP altogether. Double Harvard (law too). Best years of my life. And I'm very happy how my life turned out (I'm up there in years). Yes, there were a lot of "pointy" kids at Harvard undergrad and at the law school but wouldn't you expect that? And there were certainly some that didn't like their undergrad experience, especially those who were bitter about not getting into Harvard Law, so went abroad for a few years to LSE (this was before it was expected to take two years off between undergrad and grad for law school; i'm not talking about the business school) and then reapplied. Or those who kept applying but couldn't get in so went elsewhere. That was a very unhappy group. Yet, 1/3 of my HLS law class were H undergrads. I have no idea if that is true today. Anyhow, life is what you make of it. You an choose to apply yourself and get as much as you can out of an experience or you can just sit bak and complain. That's true if you have an IQ of 60 or 183.

I'm much more impressed with young folks attending Harvard and Harvard Law than those "up there in years." Back then it was much more about money and connections and social class than merit. [/quote]


Sorry to clutter your inbox. But I was first gen and there was no money and no connections. I did it all on my own out of the public California school system. But go ahead and project judgment.