Are elite schools for excellent sheep?

[Anonymous]

I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

Interesting. In my HYPS class, there were a lot of doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Not too many teachers, NPO workers, academics, or scientists. Lots went into consulting and finance as well. But then again, I graduated a couple years after '08, so I think my class was more financially-minded than earlier classes. It's probably only gotten worse.

The PP who said that it's not a good advertisement of HYPS that their alumni can't handle minor criticism of the schools is on point. I agree with the OP and with Deresiewicz, and I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “we were all happy happy happy it’s the best it’s perfect how dare you imply someone might not be happy at HYS” posters freaking out in this thread are quite something to watch.

I'm guessing you're not an HYPS alum? What axe do you have to grind against these schools? Sorry your rejection letter from high school still hurts to this day.

I am an alum. No axe to grind, just bemused by the bizarrely panicked posts from people criticizing OP. It is not a great advertisement for HYPS that so many of you can’t handle mild criticism of the schools.

LOL. Yeah, sure you're an HYPS alum

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

Interesting. In my HYPS class, there were a lot of doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Not too many teachers, NPO workers, academics, or scientists. Lots went into consulting and finance as well. But then again, I graduated a couple years after '08, so I think my class was more financially-minded than earlier classes. It's probably only gotten worse.

The PP who said that it's not a good advertisement of HYPS that their alumni can't handle minor criticism of the schools is on point. I agree with the OP and with Deresiewicz, and I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates.

Exactly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “we were all happy happy happy it’s the best it’s perfect how dare you imply someone might not be happy at HYS” posters freaking out in this thread are quite something to watch.

I'm guessing you're not an HYPS alum? What axe do you have to grind against these schools? Sorry your rejection letter from high school still hurts to this day.

I am an alum. No axe to grind, just bemused by the bizarrely panicked posts from people criticizing OP. It is not a great advertisement for HYPS that so many of you can’t handle mild criticism of the schools.

LOL. Yeah, sure you're an HYPS alum :D

NP altogether. Double Harvard (law too). Best years of my life. And I'm very happy how my life turned out (I'm up there in years). Yes, there were a lot of "pointy" kids at Harvard undergrad and at the law school but wouldn't you expect that? And there were certainly some that didn't like their undergrad experience, especially those who were bitter about not getting into Harvard Law, so went abroad for a few years to LSE (this was before it was expected to take two years off between undergrad and grad for law school; i'm not talking about the business school) and then reapplied. Or those who kept applying but couldn't get in so went elsewhere. That was a very unhappy group. Yet, 1/3 of my HLS law class were H undergrads. I have no idea if that is true today. Anyhow, life is what you make of it. You an choose to apply yourself and get as much as you can out of an experience or you can just sit bak and complain. That's true if you have an IQ of 60 or 183.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

Interesting. In my HYPS class, there were a lot of doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Not too many teachers, NPO workers, academics, or scientists. Lots went into consulting and finance as well. But then again, I graduated a couple years after '08, so I think my class was more financially-minded than earlier classes. It's probably only gotten worse.

The PP who said that it's not a good advertisement of HYPS that their alumni can't handle minor criticism of the schools is on point. I agree with the OP and with Deresiewicz, and I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates.

Exactly

How would you know? Doubt you're an HYPS alum yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

I think that you are trying to be reasonable, but it is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the realities of students at elite undergraduate National Universities. These are highly intelligent, genuinely motivated young adults who strive for the best in themselves and in their professional endeavors. Some want to become investment bankers and consultants, while others want to be educators, doctors, lawyers, engineers, non-profit organizers and administrators, researchers, and a number of other professions and occupations.

I think that the description might be more apt for students at SLACs who are trying to find & refine their interests and locate a path to a future career. These are excellent students who continue the high school or prep school experience at a higher level. And there is nothing wrong with any of this. But, slamming SLACs does not sell books. In order to sell books you need to slam Harvard or the Ivies. Bring the privileged elite down to our level type of silliness.

Interesting. In my HYPS class, there were a lot of doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Not too many teachers, NPO workers, academics, or scientists. Lots went into consulting and finance as well. But then again, I graduated a couple years after '08, so I think my class was more financially-minded than earlier classes. It's probably only gotten worse.

The PP who said that it's not a good advertisement of HYPS that their alumni can't handle minor criticism of the schools is on point. I agree with the OP and with Deresiewicz, and I do think it took me a couple of years to unlearn the relentless perfectionism and status-seeking behavior of my college years.

Also, I think being highly intelligent in and of itself is not particularly valuable. What's more valuable is intellectual curiosity (different from innate smarts) and a sense of internal motivation. Those two traits I do find lacking in a lot of my classmates.

Exactly

How would you know? Doubt you're an HYPS alum yourself.

Well, I'm 22:06 and a double Harvard and I agree. It's what you make of it. There are nerdy pointy kids everywhere who will sit back and complain about this and that and protest everything for four years. Then there are the others who are really intellectually curious and dig in. Which group is the Sheeple? I don't know. I just enjoyed by experience there and my life was greatly enriched by it but it's not for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t like the sheep part either, but I think what the author was implying was more that many of these students just achieve because it is what is expected and it gets them rewards. So they keep just reaching for the next ring. It isn’t necessarily because they actually love any of it. They just do it. And sure, the elite schools might get them networks and access to well paying jobs, but do they actually WANT to be investment bankers or consultants, etc etc? Is that what they love? Is it what truly motivates them?

You are delusional. 99% of people won't be able to do what they love for a living or chase what truly motivates them in their careers. HYPS alumni are not exempt from this. I can't blame any 22 year-old who decides to become a "sheep" and go into a lucrative job in tech or finance after graduation.

99% is an big overestimate if you're talking about people with a college degree. Pretty much everyone I know with a degree is working in the field they studied and is happy with their work.

The vast majority of people with college degrees do not "do what they love for a living" or pursue what "truly motivates them."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “we were all happy happy happy it’s the best it’s perfect how dare you imply someone might not be happy at HYS” posters freaking out in this thread are quite something to watch.

I'm guessing you're not an HYPS alum? What axe do you have to grind against these schools? Sorry your rejection letter from high school still hurts to this day.

I am an alum. No axe to grind, just bemused by the bizarrely panicked posts from people criticizing OP. It is not a great advertisement for HYPS that so many of you can’t handle mild criticism of the schools.

LOL. Yeah, sure you're an HYPS alum

Shrug. You don’t have to believe me. It’s kind of embarrassing how sensitive you are to criticism of HYPS, though.

I had a blast at HYPS, but I’m not so desperately identified with my school as to be unable to recognize that there is some merit to the “excellent sheep” criticism. And furthermore, I’m not so wildly insecure as to freak out when I read such mild criticism. The absolutely panicked posts in this thread criticizing OP do more to prove OP’s point than OP herself did.

[Anonymous]

William Deresiewicz taught at Yale, but he was never a professor. He was denied tenure and he was really bitter about it. His criticisms of his students as "sheeple" began once he was forced to leave.

He was invited to a master's tea to speak and his book was talked about a lot on the Yale campus when it was written.
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2014/09/12/anti-ivy-league-book-triggers-dissent/

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2014/10/03/deresiewiczs-irony/

Please note that WD's solution is to admit students solely by standardized test scores.

[Anonymous]

Wow, the arrogance

Keep talking - you’re just reinforcing stereotypes

You really can’t do any self reflection, can you?

Which somewhat proves the author’s point

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, the arrogance

Keep talking - you’re just reinforcing stereotypes

You really can’t do any self reflection, can you?

Which somewhat proves the author’s point

The author has nothing of meaning to say. He has just sour grapes after being denied tenure from Yale.