Are elite schools for excellent sheep?

[Anonymous]

I find myself frequently questioning the DMV's emphasis on elite colleges and Ivy admissions. This is an excerpt from another commenter on this thread that seems particularly insightful:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/90/1076519.page


Ivy alum here and my school was teeming with miserable undergrads focused on getting the next brass ring. Not very many well-adjusted, down-to-earth people from my undergrad. That kind of "insecure overachiever" (as coined by McKinsey as their ideal candidate) generally tends to do relatively well financially, but are normally miserable as adults and end up as status seekers. I think the primary traits elite schools select for are competitiveness and status-consciousness.

I feel like DCUM has a lot of those types of people. Too much emphasis on going to the "right" schools, living in the "right" neighborhood, getting the "right" jobs. The best thing I did for myself after my miserable undergrad experience was slowly learning to take risks and feel comfortable living a life that’s interesting and enjoyable but doesn’t revolve around catching the brass ring. It’s such a profound shift from the mindset most Ivy League grads have…I’m convinced you can only snap out of that brain state after a severe personal crisis that causes you to question all the foundational values you were raised with. I’m glad I got mine over with at a young age.

Basically Ivy League schools are sociopath factories that teach you to be a ruthless nihilist careerist. It’s hard to rediscover your own humanity afterwards.

------

-1

You are clearly a troll, or an alum of one of the fake Ivies that have no sense of community and are filled with a bunch of cutthroat, status-seeking grinders (Cornell or Columbia most likely). I'm an HYPS alum and I loved my experience, and so did most of my classmates.

------

You are so wildly panicked and defensive. PP nailed it, and it’s making you squirm because you feel seen. You’re thrashing about, insistent that PP is a “troll” because the accuracy of what PP wrote is distressing to you. It’s interesting to watch.

I went to HYS.

The whole elite college admissions hoopla seems like a miserable rat race to nowhere. Sure, a HYPS undergrad might open up some doors in the future. But at some point, students have to stop doing things for the sake of maximizing their "permanent resume" and start taking risks and ownership of their own future. If the most common response for "Why should my kid bother striving to go to a T10 for undergrad?" is that they should do so to open up future opportunities, where exactly does that mentality end? Then it's "I should really do two years at McKinsey/Goldman/Google for future opportunities" and then "I should really go to an elite B-School or Law School for future opportunities" and the status-seeking treadmill goes on and on.

A Yale professor wrote a really interesting book about this called "Excellent Sheep":

As a professor at Yale, William Deresiewicz saw something that troubled him deeply. His students, some of the nation’s brightest minds, were adrift when it came to the big questions: how to think critically and creatively and how to find a sense of purpose. Now he argues that elite colleges are turning out conformists without a compass.

I do think that a lot of the elite college graduates, at least from what I've seen in the DMV, tend to be very driven and competitive as well as status-conscious. That often leads to financial success but an odd sense of alienation and a lack of ownership (the latter of which tends to be the biggest contributor to depression and anxiety) over their own future. I can't really relate to the neuroticism and fear of failure surrounding these people, but maybe I'm out of the loop about something important?

And yes, there are probably a decent number of HYPS grads using their careers to mitigate climate change or conduct cancer research and do all sorts of lovely things for humanity. But it does seem like the majority of the Ivy/Stanford/Duke grads I meet seem to be concerned with securing the next brass ring instead of doing something more meaningful to them.

What are your opinions on the matter? If you're a relatively recent Ivy grad (as I am), does this seem to resonate with you? Or not really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find myself frequently questioning the DMV's emphasis on elite colleges and Ivy admissions. This is an excerpt from another commenter on this thread that seems particularly insightful:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/90/1076519.page


Ivy alum here and my school was teeming with miserable undergrads focused on getting the next brass ring. Not very many well-adjusted, down-to-earth people from my undergrad. That kind of "insecure overachiever" (as coined by McKinsey as their ideal candidate) generally tends to do relatively well financially, but are normally miserable as adults and end up as status seekers. I think the primary traits elite schools select for are competitiveness and status-consciousness.

I feel like DCUM has a lot of those types of people. Too much emphasis on going to the "right" schools, living in the "right" neighborhood, getting the "right" jobs. The best thing I did for myself after my miserable undergrad experience was slowly learning to take risks and feel comfortable living a life that’s interesting and enjoyable but doesn’t revolve around catching the brass ring. It’s such a profound shift from the mindset most Ivy League grads have…I’m convinced you can only snap out of that brain state after a severe personal crisis that causes you to question all the foundational values you were raised with. I’m glad I got mine over with at a young age.

Basically Ivy League schools are sociopath factories that teach you to be a ruthless nihilist careerist. It’s hard to rediscover your own humanity afterwards.

------

-1

You are clearly a troll, or an alum of one of the fake Ivies that have no sense of community and are filled with a bunch of cutthroat, status-seeking grinders (Cornell or Columbia most likely). I'm an HYPS alum and I loved my experience, and so did most of my classmates.

------

You are so wildly panicked and defensive. PP nailed it, and it’s making you squirm because you feel seen. You’re thrashing about, insistent that PP is a “troll” because the accuracy of what PP wrote is distressing to you. It’s interesting to watch.

I went to HYS.

The whole elite college admissions hoopla seems like a miserable rat race to nowhere. Sure, a HYPS undergrad might open up some doors in the future. But at some point, students have to stop doing things for the sake of maximizing their "permanent resume" and start taking risks and ownership of their own future. If the most common response for "Why should my kid bother striving to go to a T10 for undergrad?" is that they should do so to open up future opportunities, where exactly does that mentality end? Then it's "I should really do two years at McKinsey/Goldman/Google for future opportunities" and then "I should really go to an elite B-School or Law School for future opportunities" and the status-seeking treadmill goes on and on.

A Yale professor wrote a really interesting book about this called "Excellent Sheep":

As a professor at Yale, William Deresiewicz saw something that troubled him deeply. His students, some of the nation’s brightest minds, were adrift when it came to the big questions: how to think critically and creatively and how to find a sense of purpose. Now he argues that elite colleges are turning out conformists without a compass.

I do think that a lot of the elite college graduates, at least from what I've seen in the DMV, tend to be very driven and competitive as well as status-conscious. That often leads to financial success but an odd sense of alienation and a lack of ownership (the latter of which tends to be the biggest contributor to depression and anxiety) over their own future. I can't really relate to the neuroticism and fear of failure surrounding these people, but maybe I'm out of the loop about something important?

And yes, there are probably a decent number of HYPS grads using their careers to mitigate climate change or conduct cancer research and do all sorts of lovely things for humanity. But it does seem like the majority of the Ivy/Stanford/Duke grads I meet seem to be concerned with securing the next brass ring instead of doing something more meaningful to them.

What are your opinions on the matter? If you're a relatively recent Ivy grad (as I am), does this seem to resonate with you? Or not really?

The novel you just wrote at 4am suggests otherwise.

Yale has 5k undergrads. No such group is one thing, and their individual existential attributes are not susceptible to this kind of summarization.

[Anonymous]

OP is a loser who blames his life's miseries on ivy grads.

[Anonymous]

Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous]

I am married to someone with two ivy degrees who is wildly successful and I will be the first to admit that has not necessarily brought him happiness. He is an over achiever who will probably never retire. He is intent on sending all our kids to top 20 schools and we are paying huge private school tuitions and tutor fees with that goal in mind. I will admit, though, our first college student is clearly having doors open for him that I personally have never seen for myself, so there IS something to be said for attending an elite school.

[Anonymous]

I honestly think there is some truth to this. Overachievers driven by money and status seems accurate. That is also very DCUM.

[Anonymous]

I think these days the main way to be competitive for admissions to an Ivy is to be the kind of person strongly driven by understanding the rules of the admissions game and wanting to do whatever it takes to jump through the next hoop put in front of you. So, once you get there you just keep looking for the next hoop to jump through. It's very much about external performance and validation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am married to someone with two ivy degrees who is wildly successful and I will be the first to admit that has not necessarily brought him happiness. He is an over achiever who will probably never retire. He is intent on sending all our kids to top 20 schools and we are paying huge private school tuitions and tutor fees with that goal in mind. I will admit, though, our first college student is clearly having doors open for him that I personally have never seen for myself, so there IS something to be said for attending an elite school.

MAYBE attending an elite school is opening doors. But it could also just be that he's kind of awesome and needs no help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find myself frequently questioning the DMV's emphasis on elite colleges and Ivy admissions. This is an excerpt from another commenter on this thread that seems particularly insightful:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/90/1076519.page


Ivy alum here and my school was teeming with miserable undergrads focused on getting the next brass ring. Not very many well-adjusted, down-to-earth people from my undergrad. That kind of "insecure overachiever" (as coined by McKinsey as their ideal candidate) generally tends to do relatively well financially, but are normally miserable as adults and end up as status seekers. I think the primary traits elite schools select for are competitiveness and status-consciousness.

I feel like DCUM has a lot of those types of people. Too much emphasis on going to the "right" schools, living in the "right" neighborhood, getting the "right" jobs. The best thing I did for myself after my miserable undergrad experience was slowly learning to take risks and feel comfortable living a life that’s interesting and enjoyable but doesn’t revolve around catching the brass ring. It’s such a profound shift from the mindset most Ivy League grads have…I’m convinced you can only snap out of that brain state after a severe personal crisis that causes you to question all the foundational values you were raised with. I’m glad I got mine over with at a young age.

Basically Ivy League schools are sociopath factories that teach you to be a ruthless nihilist careerist. It’s hard to rediscover your own humanity afterwards.

------

-1

You are clearly a troll, or an alum of one of the fake Ivies that have no sense of community and are filled with a bunch of cutthroat, status-seeking grinders (Cornell or Columbia most likely). I'm an HYPS alum and I loved my experience, and so did most of my classmates.

------

You are so wildly panicked and defensive. PP nailed it, and it’s making you squirm because you feel seen. You’re thrashing about, insistent that PP is a “troll” because the accuracy of what PP wrote is distressing to you. It’s interesting to watch.

I went to HYS.

The whole elite college admissions hoopla seems like a miserable rat race to nowhere. Sure, a HYPS undergrad might open up some doors in the future. But at some point, students have to stop doing things for the sake of maximizing their "permanent resume" and start taking risks and ownership of their own future. If the most common response for "Why should my kid bother striving to go to a T10 for undergrad?" is that they should do so to open up future opportunities, where exactly does that mentality end? Then it's "I should really do two years at McKinsey/Goldman/Google for future opportunities" and then "I should really go to an elite B-School or Law School for future opportunities" and the status-seeking treadmill goes on and on.

A Yale professor wrote a really interesting book about this called "Excellent Sheep":

As a professor at Yale, William Deresiewicz saw something that troubled him deeply. His students, some of the nation’s brightest minds, were adrift when it came to the big questions: how to think critically and creatively and how to find a sense of purpose. Now he argues that elite colleges are turning out conformists without a compass.

I do think that a lot of the elite college graduates, at least from what I've seen in the DMV, tend to be very driven and competitive as well as status-conscious. That often leads to financial success but an odd sense of alienation and a lack of ownership (the latter of which tends to be the biggest contributor to depression and anxiety) over their own future. I can't really relate to the neuroticism and fear of failure surrounding these people, but maybe I'm out of the loop about something important?

And yes, there are probably a decent number of HYPS grads using their careers to mitigate climate change or conduct cancer research and do all sorts of lovely things for humanity. But it does seem like the majority of the Ivy/Stanford/Duke grads I meet seem to be concerned with securing the next brass ring instead of doing something more meaningful to them.

What are your opinions on the matter? If you're a relatively recent Ivy grad (as I am), does this seem to resonate with you? Or not really?

The novel you just wrote at 4am suggests otherwise.

Yale has 5k undergrads. No such group is one thing, and their individual existential attributes are not susceptible to this kind of summarization.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am married to someone with two ivy degrees who is wildly successful and I will be the first to admit that has not necessarily brought him happiness. He is an over achiever who will probably never retire. He is intent on sending all our kids to top 20 schools and we are paying huge private school tuitions and tutor fees with that goal in mind. I will admit, though, our first college student is clearly having doors open for him that I personally have never seen for myself, so there IS something to be said for attending an elite school.

MAYBE attending an elite school is opening doors. But it could also just be that he's kind of awesome and needs no help.

Thanks and I agree he is awesome, but he definitely needs help! DS has ADHD and is not nearly as driven as his dad. It just feels like he is just having more success with getting internships and making connections. But I went to a regionally ranked school, so no comparison!

[Anonymous]

OP: The Yale professor wants to sell his book. Telling readers that Ivies and other elite schools leads one to challenge himself/herself among a group of equally intelligent and motivated peers is not going to sell books; sharing that attending and graduating from the most elite schools opens up job and career opportunities in numbers far greater than for those attending and graduating from less competitive schools is common knowledge and is not going to help sell books.

OP: The fact that you chose a different path for you is fine, but what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone.

If you think that wealthy, successful people are not happy and fulfilled, try being poor and unsuccessful.

[Anonymous]

Teacher here. I LOVE Excellent Sheep and read it annually. It's a spot-on diagnosis of where we are as a country.

At the end he's thinking about the future of higher ed and writes:

"Will we continue to maintain an artificial scarcity of educational resources, then drive our children into terror and despair by making them compete with one another for the spaces that are left?"

Pretty apt description of DCUM, no? Competition, terror and despair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: The Yale professor wants to sell his book. Telling readers that Ivies and other elite schools leads one to challenge himself/herself among a group of equally intelligent and motivated peers is not going to sell books; sharing that attending and graduating from the most elite schools opens up job and career opportunities in numbers far greater than for those attending and graduating from less competitive schools is common knowledge and is not going to help sell books.

OP: The fact that you chose a different path for you is fine, but what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone.

If you think that wealthy, successful people are not happy and fulfilled, try being poor and unsuccessful.

OP is poor, unsuccessful - and miserable.

[Anonymous]

I’m pretty skeptical of anyone calling people sheep/sheeple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am married to someone with two ivy degrees who is wildly successful and I will be the first to admit that has not necessarily brought him happiness. He is an over achiever who will probably never retire. He is intent on sending all our kids to top 20 schools and we are paying huge private school tuitions and tutor fees with that goal in mind. I will admit, though, our first college student is clearly having doors open for him that I personally have never seen for myself, so there IS something to be said for attending an elite school.

What kind of door ?