Jewish curious ….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be. That’s quite significant, given how much of the Jewish year is taken up with holidays and observances that celebrate or commemorate events in the history of the Jewish people. I’ve often wondered whether a convert would feel as though they can connect with those traditions, when it isn’t their history.

Your worldview is small. How can a person commemorate events that weren’t in their history? Have you asked any of the millions of immigrants to the United States who happily celebrate the 4th of July and embrace our traditions? People who relocate to a new state / area and adopt the traditions there (move to the south, start caring about college football, etc).

Our temple has many folks who have converted to Judaism and they are active congregants. Your world view is parochial and is one of the reasons people leave Judaism (not welcoming, tribalism).

You’re not understanding my post. The existence of a Jewish ethnicity isn’t an opinion; it’s fact. I *never* once said that converts to Judaism should be anything but 100% welcomed.

But look at your own words: you said “embrace our traditions.” Implicit in that statement is the notion that immigrants are embracing traditions that aren’t their own. Have you asked immigrants how they feel about celebrating the 4th of July? My guess is that some feel totally comfortable with it, while others might still feel as though they’re not 100% part of everything, despite being American via naturalization. Viewpoints undoubtedly vary. That was my point.

I think you're trying to split hairs here. How much of the Jewish year is taken up by ethnic commemoration that is not also religious? I'm not sure you've been paying attention to the holidays that we observe throughout the year. We aren't even a month past Shavuot, where everyone we're told everyone stood at Sinai - past, present and future Jews, converts, etc. We just read the Book of Ruth, where Ruth becomes part of Naomi's family and the ancestor of the Messiah. Converts become "b'nei Avraham v'Sarah" (children of Avraham and Sarah), adopted into the Jewish peoplehood. There are multiple times throughout the Torah that we are commanded not to oppress the ger (the stranger or convert). It doesn't say "don't oppress them religiously, but feel free to make them feel like ethnic outsiders."

I'm a different poster, but as for your attempt to pick apart "embracing our traditions" as some sort of signal that immigrants are never really part of us, have you ever been to a naturalization ceremony? July 4 is coming up and I'm sure you can find one near you to attend. It's very moving. "They" become "us" and those traditions are all of "ours" together.

Sorry, I did the quoting wrong. I think I fixed it.

You’re still not getting it.

Really? You read the example of Ruth and then say a convert will never really be a Jew?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be. That’s quite significant, given how much of the Jewish year is taken up with holidays and observances that celebrate or commemorate events in the history of the Jewish people. I’ve often wondered whether a convert would feel as though they can connect with those traditions, when it isn’t their history.

Your worldview is small. How can a person commemorate events that weren’t in their history? Have you asked any of the millions of immigrants to the United States who happily celebrate the 4th of July and embrace our traditions? People who relocate to a new state / area and adopt the traditions there (move to the south, start caring about college football, etc).

Our temple has many folks who have converted to Judaism and they are active congregants. Your world view is parochial and is one of the reasons people leave Judaism (not welcoming, tribalism).

You’re not understanding my post. The existence of a Jewish ethnicity isn’t an opinion; it’s fact. I *never* once said that converts to Judaism should be anything but 100% welcomed.

But look at your own words: you said “embrace our traditions.” Implicit in that statement is the notion that immigrants are embracing traditions that aren’t their own. Have you asked immigrants how they feel about celebrating the 4th of July? My guess is that some feel totally comfortable with it, while others might still feel as though they’re not 100% part of everything, despite being American via naturalization. Viewpoints undoubtedly vary. That was my point.

I think you're trying to split hairs here. How much of the Jewish year is taken up by ethnic commemoration that is not also religious? I'm not sure you've been paying attention to the holidays that we observe throughout the year. We aren't even a month past Shavuot, where everyone we're told everyone stood at Sinai - past, present and future Jews, converts, etc. We just read the Book of Ruth, where Ruth becomes part of Naomi's family and the ancestor of the Messiah. Converts become "b'nei Avraham v'Sarah" (children of Avraham and Sarah), adopted into the Jewish peoplehood. There are multiple times throughout the Torah that we are commanded not to oppress the ger (the stranger or convert). It doesn't say "don't oppress them religiously, but feel free to make them feel like ethnic outsiders."

I'm a different poster, but as for your attempt to pick apart "embracing our traditions" as some sort of signal that immigrants are never really part of us, have you ever been to a naturalization ceremony? July 4 is coming up and I'm sure you can find one near you to attend. It's very moving. "They" become "us" and those traditions are all of "ours" together.

Sorry, I did the quoting wrong. I think I fixed it.

You’re still not getting it.
You said "Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be."

Jewish law goes to great lengths to avoid the ethnic gatekeeping that you're undertaking here. Ruth is acknowledged as a Moabite woman, but once she converts, her ethnicity isn't relevant anymore and she is just one of us Jews and explicitly the ancestor of King David. One of the commandments regarding converts is not to remind them that they are a convert. Another is to love the convert. Arguing that converts "are not part of the Jewish people [from any standpoint] and can never be" is a gross misunderstanding of Jewish law and Jewish peoplehood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be. That’s quite significant, given how much of the Jewish year is taken up with holidays and observances that celebrate or commemorate events in the history of the Jewish people. I’ve often wondered whether a convert would feel as though they can connect with those traditions, when it isn’t their history.

Your worldview is small. How can a person commemorate events that weren’t in their history? Have you asked any of the millions of immigrants to the United States who happily celebrate the 4th of July and embrace our traditions? People who relocate to a new state / area and adopt the traditions there (move to the south, start caring about college football, etc).

Our temple has many folks who have converted to Judaism and they are active congregants. Your world view is parochial and is one of the reasons people leave Judaism (not welcoming, tribalism).

You’re not understanding my post. The existence of a Jewish ethnicity isn’t an opinion; it’s fact. I *never* once said that converts to Judaism should be anything but 100% welcomed.

But look at your own words: you said “embrace our traditions.” Implicit in that statement is the notion that immigrants are embracing traditions that aren’t their own. Have you asked immigrants how they feel about celebrating the 4th of July? My guess is that some feel totally comfortable with it, while others might still feel as though they’re not 100% part of everything, despite being American via naturalization. Viewpoints undoubtedly vary. That was my point.

I think you're trying to split hairs here. How much of the Jewish year is taken up by ethnic commemoration that is not also religious? I'm not sure you've been paying attention to the holidays that we observe throughout the year. We aren't even a month past Shavuot, where everyone we're told everyone stood at Sinai - past, present and future Jews, converts, etc. We just read the Book of Ruth, where Ruth becomes part of Naomi's family and the ancestor of the Messiah. Converts become "b'nei Avraham v'Sarah" (children of Avraham and Sarah), adopted into the Jewish peoplehood. There are multiple times throughout the Torah that we are commanded not to oppress the ger (the stranger or convert). It doesn't say "don't oppress them religiously, but feel free to make them feel like ethnic outsiders."

I'm a different poster, but as for your attempt to pick apart "embracing our traditions" as some sort of signal that immigrants are never really part of us, have you ever been to a naturalization ceremony? July 4 is coming up and I'm sure you can find one near you to attend. It's very moving. "They" become "us" and those traditions are all of "ours" together.
Sorry, I did the quoting wrong. I think I fixed it.

You’re still not getting it.
You said "Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be."

Jewish law goes to great lengths to avoid the ethnic gatekeeping that you're undertaking here. Ruth is acknowledged as a Moabite woman, but once she converts, her ethnicity isn't relevant anymore and she is just one of us Jews and explicitly the ancestor of King David. One of the commandments regarding converts is not to remind them that they are a convert. Another is to love the convert. Arguing that converts "are not part of the Jewish people [from any standpoint] and can never be" is a gross misunderstanding of Jewish law and Jewish peoplehood.

NP, and that’s all fine, but I think culturally it’s just different. If you didn’t grow up listening to your great aunt Goldie complaining about the soup being too cold at the club in Boca, there’s no way to get that funny Jewish sensibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be. That’s quite significant, given how much of the Jewish year is taken up with holidays and observances that celebrate or commemorate events in the history of the Jewish people. I’ve often wondered whether a convert would feel as though they can connect with those traditions, when it isn’t their history.

Your worldview is small. How can a person commemorate events that weren’t in their history? Have you asked any of the millions of immigrants to the United States who happily celebrate the 4th of July and embrace our traditions? People who relocate to a new state / area and adopt the traditions there (move to the south, start caring about college football, etc).

Our temple has many folks who have converted to Judaism and they are active congregants. Your world view is parochial and is one of the reasons people leave Judaism (not welcoming, tribalism).

You’re not understanding my post. The existence of a Jewish ethnicity isn’t an opinion; it’s fact. I *never* once said that converts to Judaism should be anything but 100% welcomed.

But look at your own words: you said “embrace our traditions.” Implicit in that statement is the notion that immigrants are embracing traditions that aren’t their own. Have you asked immigrants how they feel about celebrating the 4th of July? My guess is that some feel totally comfortable with it, while others might still feel as though they’re not 100% part of everything, despite being American via naturalization. Viewpoints undoubtedly vary. That was my point.

I think you're trying to split hairs here. How much of the Jewish year is taken up by ethnic commemoration that is not also religious? I'm not sure you've been paying attention to the holidays that we observe throughout the year. We aren't even a month past Shavuot, where everyone we're told everyone stood at Sinai - past, present and future Jews, converts, etc. We just read the Book of Ruth, where Ruth becomes part of Naomi's family and the ancestor of the Messiah. Converts become "b'nei Avraham v'Sarah" (children of Avraham and Sarah), adopted into the Jewish peoplehood. There are multiple times throughout the Torah that we are commanded not to oppress the ger (the stranger or convert). It doesn't say "don't oppress them religiously, but feel free to make them feel like ethnic outsiders."

I'm a different poster, but as for your attempt to pick apart "embracing our traditions" as some sort of signal that immigrants are never really part of us, have you ever been to a naturalization ceremony? July 4 is coming up and I'm sure you can find one near you to attend. It's very moving. "They" become "us" and those traditions are all of "ours" together.

Sorry, I did the quoting wrong. I think I fixed it.

You’re still not getting it.
You said "Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be."

Jewish law goes to great lengths to avoid the ethnic gatekeeping that you're undertaking here. Ruth is acknowledged as a Moabite woman, but once she converts, her ethnicity isn't relevant anymore and she is just one of us Jews and explicitly the ancestor of King David. One of the commandments regarding converts is not to remind them that they are a convert. Another is to love the convert. Arguing that converts "are not part of the Jewish people [from any standpoint] and can never be" is a gross misunderstanding of Jewish law and Jewish peoplehood.

I never said any standpoint. I meant from an ethnic standpoint. One cannot become Ashkenazi, for example, by converting.

[Anonymous]

Moreover, I am talking about how I think some converts might feel, not what I think. I said very clearly that they are Jewish. Not ethnically, but religiously. Stop twisting my words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Moreover, I am talking about how I think some converts might feel, not what I think. I said very clearly that they are Jewish. Not ethnically, but religiously. Stop twisting my words.

I'm not twisting your words. You said "Of course, converts are just as Jewish as anyone else is, from a religious standpoint, and they should be accepted in synagogues. But they are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be. That’s quite significant, given how much of the Jewish year is taken up with holidays and observances that celebrate or commemorate events in the history of the Jewish people. I’ve often wondered whether a convert would feel as though they can connect with those traditions, when it isn’t their history."

You don't get points for conceding that converts are religiously Jewish if you add a huge caveat (which, again, goes against Jewish law) that converts "are not part of the Jewish people, from an ethnic standpoint, and never can be" and then question whether converts "can connect with those traditions, when it isn't their history." Converts are Jews. Despite their physical DNA not changing in the mikveh, Jewish law acknowledges that converts become part of the Jewish people and that our traditions and history are shared, regardless of how we became Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Do you not understand the notion of a Jewish ethnic identity? Apparently not.

But it was enough to get 6 million of us killed, so I think it’s worth considering. It exists, despite you claiming it doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

And you cannot share history. Doesn’t work like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you not understand the notion of a Jewish ethnic identity? Apparently not.

But it was enough to get 6 million of us killed, so I think it’s worth considering. It exists, despite you claiming it doesn’t.

So converts are tolerated, not exactly accepted. Have to remain religious and can have their Jewishness questioned should they wish to be nominal instead

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you not understand the notion of a Jewish ethnic identity? Apparently not.

But it was enough to get 6 million of us killed, so I think it’s worth considering. It exists, despite you claiming it doesn’t.

So converts are tolerated, not exactly accepted. Have to remain religious and can have their Jewishness questioned should they wish to be nominal instead

I never said that. Again, I’m talking about how some of THEM feel. NOT about how those born as Jews should feel about them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you not understand the notion of a Jewish ethnic identity? Apparently not.

But it was enough to get 6 million of us killed, so I think it’s worth considering. It exists, despite you claiming it doesn’t.

So converts are tolerated, not exactly accepted. Have to remain religious and can have their Jewishness questioned should they wish to be nominal instead

If a convert—someone who is not ethnically Jewish—does not practice Judaism, how are they Jewish? Honest question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And you cannot share history. Doesn’t work like that.

Why are you so set on this? So immigrants to the US - American history doesn’t belong to them? Tell that to the thousands of immigrants who have fought and died for this country. Oh, but they’re not “ethnically” American, so it doesn’t count!

Also- Being of Ashkenazi descent is not the only way to be Jewish, “ethnically”’or otherwise. Tell that to those of Sephardic descent, Mitzrahi descent, as well as those who are descended from people who converted many generations ago (and are not white / Ashkenazi). But that’s ok, keep harping on white “ethnic Jews.” Omg, I hope you do not belong to my temple, but I’m sure there are your kind there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And you cannot share history. Doesn’t work like that.

Why are you so set on this? So immigrants to the US - American history doesn’t belong to them? Tell that to the thousands of immigrants who have fought and died for this country. Oh, but they’re not “ethnically” American, so it doesn’t count!

Also- Being of Ashkenazi descent is not the only way to be Jewish, “ethnically”’or otherwise. Tell that to those of Sephardic descent, Mitzrahi descent, as well as those who are descended from people who converted many generations ago (and are not white / Ashkenazi). But that’s ok, keep harping on white “ethnic Jews.” Omg, I hope you do not belong to my temple, but I’m sure there are your kind there.

woah this is a crazy unwelcoming thread-- OP check out a Reform synagogue-- they are welcoming and embrace conversions without all this judgment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And you cannot share history. Doesn’t work like that.

Why are you so set on this? So immigrants to the US - American history doesn’t belong to them? Tell that to the thousands of immigrants who have fought and died for this country. Oh, but they’re not “ethnically” American, so it doesn’t count!

Also- Being of Ashkenazi descent is not the only way to be Jewish, “ethnically”’or otherwise. Tell that to those of Sephardic descent, Mitzrahi descent, as well as those who are descended from people who converted many generations ago (and are not white / Ashkenazi). But that’s ok, keep harping on white “ethnic Jews.” Omg, I hope you do not belong to my temple, but I’m sure there are your kind there.

I discussed Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews.

[Anonymous]

American isn’t an ethnicity.