Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

here's hoping that the various drives to get kids from Wards 7 and 8 vaccinated work.

I haven't heard anything about mandatory vaccination for kids 12+ yet -- I wonder if that will be more discussed with the full approval next month.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people are confused about Weingarten’s statement, apparently made on a TV show. unclear what AFT’s position actually is about mandatory vax.

https://mobile.twitter.com/crampell/status/1424392084472094722

Only you are confused. As I just said, the AFT supports negotiating mandates. This has been the case all along.

A mandate involves more than just shots in arms. What are the ramifications for those who can't or won't vaccinate? Will vaccination status be made public? Will sick leave be allowed for anyone who suffers from vaccine side effects? Will the mandate apply to potential booster shots? Etc. etc. All of that has to be worked out.

But a mandate is black and white, there should be zero negotiation. If you can’t or won’t get vaccinated, you no longer have employment in education. By throwing in “… we’ll what about people that…” isn’t a mandate, it’s a choice. And considering that teachers in this area were pushed to the front of the line in February, if they don’t have vaccines now, they need to drop everything and get a shot -CVS, Walgreens etc.- are open very late, some open 24 hours. Get it now or get your resume together because you will no longer be employed.

Sadly for you, I guess, life is a bit more complex than your imagination. In reality, some folks have medical reasons not to be vaccinated. Moreover, employment contracts cannot simply be broken on a whim. Thankfully, both the Bowser administration and the WTU took a more serious approach than what you are advocating and were able to reach a mutually-acceptable agreement.

Hi Jeff. Can we get some sources on your assertions? Can you point us to the specific language in WTU's collective bargaining agreement that prevents the city from imposing a vaccine mandate on teachers? Also, doctors will tell you that almost no one has a valid medical reason for not getting vaccinated. Those are rare.

I am quite sure that the DC government could have imposed a mandate. I am similarly sure that if the mandate included penalties affecting employment, it would have been challenged in court and would have been essentially worthless. But, not having a copy of the contract on hand, I can't provide you the specific language. This reality has been clear to anyone paying attention to the ongoing discussions.

I have no idea how common medical exemptions are and I really don't care. Nor do I care about religious exemptions which I personally find even more absurd. But just about every mandate includes such exemptions so there is no reason for DC to be different. If those claiming exemptions want to get tested weekly for the indefinite future, that's their choice I guess. Personally, I'd do a different cost-benefit analysis.

copying this from another thread, because it seems relevant:

I work in HR and see the exemption requests from the vaccine mandates. There’s a lot of people with extreme religious beliefs that relate to vaccines generally or this vaccine more specifically because of the testing on the fetal cell line. (I’m always curious if these people also reject medicine tested on those lines.). There seems to be a large overlap with those people believing conspiracy theories about the vaccine because they also often cite inaccurate info about the supposed risks that they got off questionable internet sites.

There are also people with medical requests that are fairly vague but similar to the lady above who said autoimmune, heart or clotting issues, etc. I sort of wonder about the doctors signing off on these requests but they are out there.

TL;DR: People who still aren't vaccinated are kooks with bizarre theories about vaccines and coronavirus.

It's mostly the wackos and the nutjobs who still aren't vaccinated.

Do you think that adults in Wards 7 and 8 are wackos and nut jobs?

You don't?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

Is this a joke? Look at the numbers. 33 percent of Ward 8 residents ages 18 and above are fully vaccinated. That's horrendous. That's lower than the vaccination rates in places like Louisiana and Mississippi. And it comes despite all the efforts of the city to get people there vaccinated. Kids are not the problem here. It's adults. All the evidence is that teachers are a far bigger danger to kids in schools than kids are to teachers.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

I still kind of amazed that vaccination rates are so low period. That means that are a lot of parents out there still unvaccinated. They are going to be the reason that kids bring covid into schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

Is this a joke? Look at the numbers. 33 percent of Ward 8 residents ages 18 and above are fully vaccinated. That's horrendous. That's lower than the vaccination rates in places like Louisiana and Mississippi. And it comes despite all the efforts of the city to get people there vaccinated. Kids are not the problem here. It's adults. All the evidence is that teachers are a far bigger danger to kids in schools than kids are to teachers.

Ward 4 has the highest percentage of fully vaccinated adults in the city, with 59.8 percent, according to the city. But even that is pretty pathetic. 40 percent of adults in DC still aren't vaccinated. It's pretty unbelievable. Apparently an awful lot of people here don't think coronavirus is *that* serious.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

Is this a joke? Look at the numbers. 33 percent of Ward 8 residents ages 18 and above are fully vaccinated. That's horrendous. That's lower than the vaccination rates in places like Louisiana and Mississippi. And it comes despite all the efforts of the city to get people there vaccinated. Kids are not the problem here. It's adults. All the evidence is that teachers are a far bigger danger to kids in schools than kids are to teachers.

The numbers at the lower end of the age span are prejudicing the stats. Did you read my entire post? There is a real drop off below 30 but especially over 50 they are doing much better. Also, why are you comparing two wards to entire states? I am sure there are pockets of those states that are lower than the two wards.

[Anonymous]

Why isn’t there a mandate that all kids 12 and older must be vaccinated. We need this ASAP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why isn’t there a mandate that all kids 12 and older must be vaccinated. We need this ASAP

I can't imagine the mayor or DCPS would touch this landmine at the moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why isn’t there a mandate that all kids 12 and older must be vaccinated. We need this ASAP

I can't imagine the mayor or DCPS would touch this landmine at the moment.

Has there been any discussion of this in any city in the U.S.?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

Is this a joke? Look at the numbers. 33 percent of Ward 8 residents ages 18 and above are fully vaccinated. That's horrendous. That's lower than the vaccination rates in places like Louisiana and Mississippi. And it comes despite all the efforts of the city to get people there vaccinated. Kids are not the problem here. It's adults. All the evidence is that teachers are a far bigger danger to kids in schools than kids are to teachers.

The numbers at the lower end of the age span are prejudicing the stats. Did you read my entire post? There is a real drop off below 30 but especially over 50 they are doing much better. Also, why are you comparing two wards to entire states? I am sure there are pockets of those states that are lower than the two wards.

Kids aren't the problem here.

Just look at the numbers -- there aren't even that many people in Washington D.C. between the ages of 12 and 17. There's about 35,000 of them. The vaccination rates for them range from 8 percent in Ward 8 to 57 percent in Ward 3. Across all wards, the average is 32 percent. That means there's about 22,000 unvaccinated kids.

Now look at adults. There's roughly 580,000 people who are at least 18 years old. 35 percent of them aren't vaccinated. That means there's 203,000 adults who aren't vaccinated.

What you're saying is ignore the 203,000 adults who aren't vaccinated, and focus on the 22,000 kids who aren't vaccinated. That makes no sense (and all of that is putting aside the fact that some pediatricians don't even recommend kids get vaccinated).

Adults are the problem.

Also, Wards 7 and 8 aren't pockets. They comprise almost one-quarter of the city's population.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

Is this a joke? Look at the numbers. 33 percent of Ward 8 residents ages 18 and above are fully vaccinated. That's horrendous. That's lower than the vaccination rates in places like Louisiana and Mississippi. And it comes despite all the efforts of the city to get people there vaccinated. Kids are not the problem here. It's adults. All the evidence is that teachers are a far bigger danger to kids in schools than kids are to teachers.

The numbers at the lower end of the age span are prejudicing the stats. Did you read my entire post? There is a real drop off below 30 but especially over 50 they are doing much better. Also, why are you comparing two wards to entire states? I am sure there are pockets of those states that are lower than the two wards.

Kids aren't the problem here.

Just look at the numbers -- there aren't even that many people in Washington D.C. between the ages of 12 and 17. There's about 35,000 of them. The vaccination rates for them range from 8 percent in Ward 8 to 57 percent in Ward 3. Across all wards, the average is 32 percent. That means there's about 22,000 unvaccinated kids.

Now look at adults. There's roughly 580,000 people who are at least 18 years old. 35 percent of them aren't vaccinated. That means there's 203,000 adults who aren't vaccinated.

What you're saying is ignore the 203,000 adults who aren't vaccinated, and focus on the 22,000 kids who aren't vaccinated. That makes no sense (and all of that is putting aside the fact that some pediatricians don't even recommend kids get vaccinated).

Adults are the problem.

Also, Wards 7 and 8 aren't pockets. They comprise almost one-quarter of the city's population.

I don’t know why you have decided that you need to argue everything to the death regardless of how ridiculous you get, but I guess that it is good that you are no longer arguing that the WTU opposes a mandate. While you were doing the math for your post, did you stop to think which age group will be in our schools? This is a schools forum after all. So few children, yet all of them will be in school.

Do you really believe that two wards in DC are comparable to two states? Use your math on that and see where it gets you.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people are confused about Weingarten’s statement, apparently made on a TV show. unclear what AFT’s position actually is about mandatory vax.

https://mobile.twitter.com/crampell/status/1424392084472094722

Only you are confused. As I just said, the AFT supports negotiating mandates. This has been the case all along.

A mandate involves more than just shots in arms. What are the ramifications for those who can't or won't vaccinate? Will vaccination status be made public? Will sick leave be allowed for anyone who suffers from vaccine side effects? Will the mandate apply to potential booster shots? Etc. etc. All of that has to be worked out.

But a mandate is black and white, there should be zero negotiation. If you can’t or won’t get vaccinated, you no longer have employment in education. By throwing in “… we’ll what about people that…” isn’t a mandate, it’s a choice. And considering that teachers in this area were pushed to the front of the line in February, if they don’t have vaccines now, they need to drop everything and get a shot -CVS, Walgreens etc.- are open very late, some open 24 hours. Get it now or get your resume together because you will no longer be employed.

Sadly for you, I guess, life is a bit more complex than your imagination. In reality, some folks have medical reasons not to be vaccinated. Moreover, employment contracts cannot simply be broken on a whim. Thankfully, both the Bowser administration and the WTU took a more serious approach than what you are advocating and were able to reach a mutually-acceptable agreement.

Hi Jeff. Can we get some sources on your assertions? Can you point us to the specific language in WTU's collective bargaining agreement that prevents the city from imposing a vaccine mandate on teachers? Also, doctors will tell you that almost no one has a valid medical reason for not getting vaccinated. Those are rare.

I am quite sure that the DC government could have imposed a mandate. I am similarly sure that if the mandate included penalties affecting employment, it would have been challenged in court and would have been essentially worthless. But, not having a copy of the contract on hand, I can't provide you the specific language. This reality has been clear to anyone paying attention to the ongoing discussions.

I have no idea how common medical exemptions are and I really don't care. Nor do I care about religious exemptions which I personally find even more absurd. But just about every mandate includes such exemptions so there is no reason for DC to be different. If those claiming exemptions want to get tested weekly for the indefinite future, that's their choice I guess. Personally, I'd do a different cost-benefit analysis.

Cool, cool. So tell me this, Loudoun County is trying to mandate that staff have to use a student's preferred pronouns, so I'm going to guess you are fine with exemptions to that mandate since the world is far more nuanced. I would say protecting the public with vaccines is far more important that pronouns, but maybe that is just me.
What has been lost in all of this is that schools are there to teach students, not be an employment agency. Get vaxxed or get a new job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people are confused about Weingarten’s statement, apparently made on a TV show. unclear what AFT’s position actually is about mandatory vax.

https://mobile.twitter.com/crampell/status/1424392084472094722

Only you are confused. As I just said, the AFT supports negotiating mandates. This has been the case all along.

A mandate involves more than just shots in arms. What are the ramifications for those who can't or won't vaccinate? Will vaccination status be made public? Will sick leave be allowed for anyone who suffers from vaccine side effects? Will the mandate apply to potential booster shots? Etc. etc. All of that has to be worked out.

But a mandate is black and white, there should be zero negotiation. If you can’t or won’t get vaccinated, you no longer have employment in education. By throwing in “… we’ll what about people that…” isn’t a mandate, it’s a choice. And considering that teachers in this area were pushed to the front of the line in February, if they don’t have vaccines now, they need to drop everything and get a shot -CVS, Walgreens etc.- are open very late, some open 24 hours. Get it now or get your resume together because you will no longer be employed.

Sadly for you, I guess, life is a bit more complex than your imagination. In reality, some folks have medical reasons not to be vaccinated. Moreover, employment contracts cannot simply be broken on a whim. Thankfully, both the Bowser administration and the WTU took a more serious approach than what you are advocating and were able to reach a mutually-acceptable agreement.

Hi Jeff. Can we get some sources on your assertions? Can you point us to the specific language in WTU's collective bargaining agreement that prevents the city from imposing a vaccine mandate on teachers? Also, doctors will tell you that almost no one has a valid medical reason for not getting vaccinated. Those are rare.

I am quite sure that the DC government could have imposed a mandate. I am similarly sure that if the mandate included penalties affecting employment, it would have been challenged in court and would have been essentially worthless. But, not having a copy of the contract on hand, I can't provide you the specific language. This reality has been clear to anyone paying attention to the ongoing discussions.

I have no idea how common medical exemptions are and I really don't care. Nor do I care about religious exemptions which I personally find even more absurd. But just about every mandate includes such exemptions so there is no reason for DC to be different. If those claiming exemptions want to get tested weekly for the indefinite future, that's their choice I guess. Personally, I'd do a different cost-benefit analysis.

Cool, cool. So tell me this, Loudoun County is trying to mandate that staff have to use a student's preferred pronouns, so I'm going to guess you are fine with exemptions to that mandate since the world is far more nuanced. I would say protecting the public with vaccines is far more important that pronouns, but maybe that is just me.
What has been lost in all of this is that schools are there to teach students, not be an employment agency. Get vaxxed or get a new job.

Why do you believe that schools should have an exemption from basic employment rights? I’m fine with the vax and pronoun mandates you’ve referenced, but take major issue with your presupposition that anyone who chooses to go into education should expect to abdicate all workers rights

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man oh jeez can we get some nuance in discussing the issue of the unvaccinated poor Black people in Ward 7 and 8?

I was just looking at the data on this and the issue is not really adults in those wards, but younger people (especially children). Less than 10% of the 12-15 year olds in those wards are vaccinated. They are over 50% for the 50 year olds and up. Most of the city is doing poorly for 17 year olds and under. The problems that schools are going to face are not unvaccinated teachers, but unvaccinated students.

Is this a joke? Look at the numbers. 33 percent of Ward 8 residents ages 18 and above are fully vaccinated. That's horrendous. That's lower than the vaccination rates in places like Louisiana and Mississippi. And it comes despite all the efforts of the city to get people there vaccinated. Kids are not the problem here. It's adults. All the evidence is that teachers are a far bigger danger to kids in schools than kids are to teachers.

The numbers at the lower end of the age span are prejudicing the stats. Did you read my entire post? There is a real drop off below 30 but especially over 50 they are doing much better. Also, why are you comparing two wards to entire states? I am sure there are pockets of those states that are lower than the two wards.

Kids aren't the problem here.

Just look at the numbers -- there aren't even that many people in Washington D.C. between the ages of 12 and 17. There's about 35,000 of them. The vaccination rates for them range from 8 percent in Ward 8 to 57 percent in Ward 3. Across all wards, the average is 32 percent. That means there's about 22,000 unvaccinated kids.

Now look at adults. There's roughly 580,000 people who are at least 18 years old. 35 percent of them aren't vaccinated. That means there's 203,000 adults who aren't vaccinated.

What you're saying is ignore the 203,000 adults who aren't vaccinated, and focus on the 22,000 kids who aren't vaccinated. That makes no sense (and all of that is putting aside the fact that some pediatricians don't even recommend kids get vaccinated).

Adults are the problem.

Also, Wards 7 and 8 aren't pockets. They comprise almost one-quarter of the city's population.

I don’t know why you have decided that you need to argue everything to the death regardless of how ridiculous you get, but I guess that it is good that you are no longer arguing that the WTU opposes a mandate. While you were doing the math for your post, did you stop to think which age group will be in our schools? This is a schools forum after all. So few children, yet all of them will be in school.

Do you really believe that two wards in DC are comparable to two states? Use your math on that and see where it gets you.

Well, actually, scientists have consistently found, throughout the pandemic, that schools have far lower coronavirus transmission rates than the surrounding communities. If you're somewhere where there's a lot of coronavirus, it turns out that schools are about the safest places you can be.

Also, not to point out the obvious, but kids and teachers and school staffs interact with adults outside their schools all the time so, yes, the fact that there is a huge number of unvaccinated adults in the area does matter, even if those people themselves don't physically step into a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people are confused about Weingarten’s statement, apparently made on a TV show. unclear what AFT’s position actually is about mandatory vax.

https://mobile.twitter.com/crampell/status/1424392084472094722

Only you are confused. As I just said, the AFT supports negotiating mandates. This has been the case all along.

A mandate involves more than just shots in arms. What are the ramifications for those who can't or won't vaccinate? Will vaccination status be made public? Will sick leave be allowed for anyone who suffers from vaccine side effects? Will the mandate apply to potential booster shots? Etc. etc. All of that has to be worked out.

But a mandate is black and white, there should be zero negotiation. If you can’t or won’t get vaccinated, you no longer have employment in education. By throwing in “… we’ll what about people that…” isn’t a mandate, it’s a choice. And considering that teachers in this area were pushed to the front of the line in February, if they don’t have vaccines now, they need to drop everything and get a shot -CVS, Walgreens etc.- are open very late, some open 24 hours. Get it now or get your resume together because you will no longer be employed.

Sadly for you, I guess, life is a bit more complex than your imagination. In reality, some folks have medical reasons not to be vaccinated. Moreover, employment contracts cannot simply be broken on a whim. Thankfully, both the Bowser administration and the WTU took a more serious approach than what you are advocating and were able to reach a mutually-acceptable agreement.

Hi Jeff. Can we get some sources on your assertions? Can you point us to the specific language in WTU's collective bargaining agreement that prevents the city from imposing a vaccine mandate on teachers? Also, doctors will tell you that almost no one has a valid medical reason for not getting vaccinated. Those are rare.

I am quite sure that the DC government could have imposed a mandate. I am similarly sure that if the mandate included penalties affecting employment, it would have been challenged in court and would have been essentially worthless. But, not having a copy of the contract on hand, I can't provide you the specific language. This reality has been clear to anyone paying attention to the ongoing discussions.

I have no idea how common medical exemptions are and I really don't care. Nor do I care about religious exemptions which I personally find even more absurd. But just about every mandate includes such exemptions so there is no reason for DC to be different. If those claiming exemptions want to get tested weekly for the indefinite future, that's their choice I guess. Personally, I'd do a different cost-benefit analysis.

Cool, cool. So tell me this, Loudoun County is trying to mandate that staff have to use a student's preferred pronouns, so I'm going to guess you are fine with exemptions to that mandate since the world is far more nuanced. I would say protecting the public with vaccines is far more important that pronouns, but maybe that is just me.
What has been lost in all of this is that schools are there to teach students, not be an employment agency. Get vaxxed or get a new job.

Why do you believe that schools should have an exemption from basic employment rights? I’m fine with the vax and pronoun mandates you’ve referenced, but take major issue with your presupposition that anyone who chooses to go into education should expect to abdicate all workers rights

Mandatory vaccination, as happens in many places (and for schoolchildren) is not the equivalent of "all workers rights." Don't be dramatic.